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Killing the killing fields of Loliondo


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#1 PeterGermany

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:28 PM

Some interesting news:

http://allafrica.com...1012061121.html

http://www.maasaierc...thekilling.html

#2 twaffle

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:29 AM

Thanks Peter, one wonders why articles will be written on the Thomson Safaris v Maasai issue but not this one which appears, on the surface, to be more insidious and far more serious. Not only are the rights of the country being violated, but the rights of all Tanzanians … not to mention the welfare and future of conservation.

Interesting articles.

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#3 Game Warden

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 09:51 AM

Peter, you know that the 2nd article is published on Safaritalk here, with Ted's permission?

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#4 Nyamera

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:15 AM

Twaffle, the international articles that deal with the TS issue also deal with OBC, but without including the views of this company. The two companies have a lot in common. There are many articles about OBC. I have seen at least 200, most of which are not very informative though. A friend of mine has also written a report that’s not yet on-line.
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#5 twaffle

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:53 AM

Nyamera, I went back to the second article and hadn't noticed that it was written some years ago so many of the articles you talk about probably have been printed since then. But even if that is the case, there is nothing in mainstream media that I notice, all the information I see is online and seems to circulate through circles of interested people. Not enough info seems to get beyond these borders.

Whilst I agree that Maasai rights are being violated right through this area, one distinction should be made between Sukenya/Thomsons and Otello group and that revolves around the absolute disregard to the rights of everyone and everything. There appears to be no redeeming features at all with the deal between the Tanzanian government and the Sheiks whereas (don't jump down my throat) there appears to be some Maasai who support Thomsons for whatever reason.

I see the difficulties in that area one of the government's making but I can't lump the two companies together as the extent of the abuse seems to be on differing scales. However, I will bow to your better knowledge of the intricacies of the history behind this sorry business.

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#6 twaffle

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:57 AM

Peter, you know that the 2nd article is published on Safaritalk here, with Ted's permission?


I thought it appeared familiar! I'm the only person I know who can read a thriller a 2nd & 3rd time and still not know who 'did it'. Very economical, one book can get the same suspense over several reads. :D

… clarity in thought comes after challenge …


#7 Nyamera

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 01:59 PM

Ted Botha’s article was written a decade ago. The articles in “mainstream media” (there are 2 of them) deal with both issues and report what Thomson are saying but not what OBC are saying – much because the latter company isn’t strictly for profit, get its clients through personal networks, and wasn’t interested in talking to the journalists. The circles of interested people are quite small in both cases, but bigger for OBC that’s a “bigger” issue and has been going on for a longer time. There was actually an article in the New York Times in 1993. As for “redeeming features” (I’d need some better expression …) there has been a 30 minute programme on Tanzanian television about those of OBC. There have been massive contributions to state coffers (and we can guess what can be done with such money in TZ), in Loliondo there have been big contributions to the hospital and schools, including the building of a secondary school, and roads, bridges and boreholes. OBC also claim to be helping a lot with anti-poaching, which could be an interesting theme for the hunting/poaching debate. Thomson has copied OBC approaching the much the same people for “support”. They both see themselves as innocent victims of evil NGOs and jealous tour operators, are both imposed by the state on the Maasai pastoralists and get great government support including “investigations”. The difference, apart from “size”, the hunting, and catering to royalty that we never see on ST versus the kind of wealthy Americans that we do sometimes find on forums such as this is that a political change could - in theory - lead to OBC’s licence not being renewed, while TS claim to be landowners.
Siku ya kufa nyani miti yote huteleza.

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#8 PeterGermany

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 04:56 PM

Peter, you know that the 2nd article is published on Safaritalk here, with Ted's permission?


Sorry GW, I was not aware of the fact this article has been posted already some time back. I thought is was only published recently (and it has been send to me the other day).

Very interesting reading anyway.

What puzzle's me is the fact, that something serious like the OBC case has obviously ongoingly been ignored by many organisations and media, which are very outspoken about other things (e.g. the Serengeti Highway or the Central Kalahari Case). You can find 100 petitions every day for a variety of things...but I only stumbled upon information about the Loliondo battle fields on a few occasions...followed by no follow ups.

At least the law suit is "news" and one can only hope this generates some more public attention.

#9 Nyamera

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 08:16 PM

PeterGermany, in case you haven’t already, you can read about my Loliondo trip here.
Siku ya kufa nyani miti yote huteleza.

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#10 PeterGermany

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:50 AM

PeterGermany, in case you haven’t already, you can read about my Loliondo trip here.


Nyamera, I know this blog post .... and your shorter version on Thomson SF. Was not aware it is you!

Basically this was the one catching my attention...then I found the "Kiling Fields of Loliondo" one...and finally the 2 posted here were brought to my attention on FB. Do you know this site: http://www.facebook....163608670323050

There are a few people trying to bring this topic up, incl. a lady from Loliondo. I hope she stays safe.

#11 Nyamera

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 04:07 PM

Thanks, PeterGermany, I hadn’t seen that page. I’ve had bad experiences of Facebook. It seems better suited for confused screaming than serious discussions about important issues.

There are organisations in Loliondo that have been trying to bring this topic up for years, but they are not that good at updating their supporters. Few speak English and there isn’t always Internet access. Though they receive continuous threats from the government and “investors” that think they are too good at raising awareness.
Siku ya kufa nyani miti yote huteleza.

READ THIS PLEASE

#12 Atravelynn

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 04:33 PM

As I read this, I recalled some of the information. It is a topic worth revisiting. The AllAfrica article offers a timely update to the situation. When Ted Botha describes how he toyed with the idea of just setting out freelance my thoughts immediately turned to Nyamera.

"We cannot just sit and watch the Arabs take our land," a spokesman for the elders, Sandet ole Reya, was quoted as saying. He finished with a very serious warning: "If necessary, we will wipe out all animals in the area to keep the Arabs out of our land."

A lose-lose proposition for sure.

I'd be open to suggestions of actions that could be undertaken by a concerned foreigner and infrequent visitor to Tanzania.

Thank you for posting, PeterGermany.

Offtopic, Facebook as confused screaming. Perceptive once again, Nyamera.

Edited by Atravelynn, 08 December 2010 - 04:34 PM.

When you think of a rhino, think of a tree (African proverb)

#13 twaffle

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 11:37 PM

Thanks, PeterGermany, I hadn’t seen that page. I’ve had bad experiences of Facebook. It seems better suited for confused screaming than serious discussions about important issues.


I agree with you completely on this point Nyamera. In fact, when I said as much on Johan Knols page (weeks ago) regarding the Save the Serengeti, I was attacked by some of those screamers. Pooh to them! :(

Now I avoid FB apart from some silly irrelevant comments on photos and such like which I make. With the advent of 'The Social Network' movie I've heard comments from the young about how disgusted they are with Facebook founder's attitude and behaviour and that they may switch off. Believe it when I see it.

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#14 Nyamera

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:55 PM

Lynn, I'm looking for suggestions.
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#15 Atravelynn

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 03:30 AM

My first suggestion is that we attack those who may destroy the Serengeti, not each other.

Other suggestions: I wrote to some people with my outrage, dismay, and likelihood of spending my tourism dollars elsewere.

Executive Secretary Mustafa Akunaay
Tanzania Association of Tour Operators
P.O. Box 6162
Arusha, Tanzania

The Honorable President Jakaya Kikwete
Embassy of the United Republic of Tanzania
1232 22nd Street NW
Washington D.C. 20037


Dr. Aloyce Nzuki
Tanzania Tourist Board
P.O. Box 2485
Dar es Salaam, Tanzania

I sent a real letter, not an email.
When you think of a rhino, think of a tree (African proverb)

#16 Nyamera

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:28 PM

I’ll have to write threatening with again spending my tourist shillings in TZ and especially in Loliondo.
Siku ya kufa nyani miti yote huteleza.

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#17 Sverker

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 05:46 PM

Thinking about the "Hunters Conservationists" - approaching all these outfitters and hunter´s associations in Africa, Europe and the US. Are they concerned enough to get a better reputation with the photo tourists and the non-hunting organisations?

Ted´s article describes something awful - even if I didn´t see any videos I felt more sick with the story than the videos showing the spearhunting of antelopes, buffalos, hippos and elephants.

Perhaps first convincing the NGOs into nature conservation to contact each hunter´s associations in each western country to make a joint effort with further actions.
Slower is better!

#18 PeterGermany

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:37 PM

Hi Sverker,

overall I think the hunting organisations are doing a lot of things to support their "conservation" positioning. And despite the fact, that I am not exactly pro-hunting ... I believe most hunters are disgusted as well if they are aware of the Loliondo case.

This is surely an extreme example and a special case. I am talking about OBC here. My understanding is, that this hunting block is factually a private hunting block. Means a closed shop and not open for other trophy hunters. Only the rightsholder and friends/guests are hunting there. Decadent! Madness took over control.

Thomson Safaris is obviously a different story. It is a regular (EDITED MATT. I'm not allowing this comment to remain.) outfitter ...

#19 safariguy

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 12:05 AM

Thomson Safaris is obviously a different story. It is a regular (EDITED MATT. I'm not allowing this comment to remain.) outfitter ...


wha????? If you think Thomson Safaris is a hunting outfitter you should do your homework. And the thread has nothing to do with TS in the first place.

#20 twaffle

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 05:44 AM

Thomson Safaris is obviously a different story. It is a regular hunting outfitter ...


wha????? If you think Thomson Safaris is a hunting outfitter you should do your homework. And the thread has nothing to do with TS in the first place.



Yes, that reference to TS and hunting surprised me as well. :D

… clarity in thought comes after challenge …






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