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thetexaskid

buffalo hunting in mozambique?

106 posts in this topic

Nyama, I agree that there are certain areas that will not be beneficial for photographic tourism. Though the majority of delta concessions will offer the prime game viewing options that I refer to.

I'm looking at WHOLE Botswana and not just the Delta. What about the western Kalahari, all the concessions south of Chobe, or the huge concessions in Kgalagadi?

 

We don't need to discuss the Delta and Linyanti concessions. I guess the last few hunting concessions in this area will sooner or later be history. (And a few people will certainly cry 'Fowl', if Kwando and Kwara's rates jump up to Selinda level.)

 

Interestingly the Jakotsha people of NG/24 are still waiting for an investor since WS gave up Jedibe in 1999. Looks like photographic operators are very selective, even in the Delta. In this case the designation of the concession as "strictly photographic" is positive for the wildlife but works clearly against the local community. I'm not sure about the long-term consequences of this...

 

it is also recognised that the new President is anti hunting.

The whole scheme of letting local communities participate in tourism is based on quotas. The land board leases a concession to a community, along with hunting rights and quotas, and the community then sells these rights (sub-lease) and quotas to a private investor or operator. I doubt that Mr Khama will change this, unless he plans to bring some of his communities into real trouble.

 

Jedibe's problem was the value placed by the community on the concession. Which did not justify the running costs as a pure water camp. Communities being greedy and not having a good reputation for dealing with operators, is one reason the area has remained out of use. There were lots issues with Tsaro Lodge (kwai concession) which led to the closure of the lodge becasue of community demands.

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What an arrogance!

 

"What an ego!"

 

The hunter scatters the herd before moving in for the kill!

2funny.gif2funny.gif

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Nappa, good as always. :D

 

 

Jedibe's problem was the value placed by the community on the concession. Which did not justify the running costs as a pure water camp. Communities being greedy and not having a good reputation for dealing with operators, is one reason the area has remained out of use.

That's the 1999er story as told by Chris McIntyre. Since then there were several unsuccessful bidding processes. The successful 2003 bidding was turned down by the governmental Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) because the bid was too low. In 2004 the Land Board then decided that the successful bidder should be allocated one of the three tourism zones (which to my knowledge was never used). In short and as said: no interest by the operators. Currently the Community Trust has funds to refurbish Makwena Camp which is used by overlanders as base for fly-camping inside NG/24. The camp is still closed.

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What an arrogance!

 

"What an ego!"

 

The hunter scatters the herd before moving in for the kill!

 

I'm sorry, English is but my 3rd language, so I have a bit of difficulty understanding this.

 

Are you guys saying that I am the prey you've been wanting to single out?

And are the rest of the posters "a herd" to you?

 

Nice, then.

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Sorry Jochen, you read it wrong!

 

I'm saying members of Safaritalk are the herd, & this hunting post has split us to where we're bickering amongst our selves.

 

A perfect result for the hunter don't you think?

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Well, one member of the herd just decided to look for another herd.

 

My good friend Johan gave me the news he won't be joining ST. And for me, it's no use being on a forum where some herd members act as a scarecrows for the very people that I believe should be joining.

 

I wish you all the best.

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Jochen,

 

I do hope you stay - your contributions are much appreciated by everyone! I do hope Johan re-considers to atleast post ocassionally. I do realize that he is not too fond of internet chat forums, and his decision is respected .....

 

Cheers

Hari

 

 

On a general note to all ST members - hope this forum is not going in the direction of other forums that we are/were part of? Hope not!

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Jochen,

I do hope you stay - your contributions are much appreciated by everyone!

 

I agree - I hope you will stay Jochen.

 

I've been away for a few days so although I've posted occasionally I havent had chance to read everything so perhaps the moderation levels are lower than they should have been - if so, apologies.

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I was also wanting to see the overall opinions on the different types of trophy hunting. If it took place, near a national park devoid of major predators, or they were were just not on the quota, how would your attitude change? Is it the killing of predators, which is not sustainable due to the pressures on dyanmics etc that people are so opposed to?

 

Impala and other buck are not effected by changes in dynamics. Only a possible fall in the genetic pool. Could you stomach this occuring?

 

There are various scenarios.

 

1. Game farms such as those in South Africa or Namibia where game has replaced cattle ranching, and trophy hunting takes place.

I'd regard this as the most acceptable form of hunting. I dont like it particularly or understand the desire to do it, but I can see that its better for the environment than cattle farming in many areas, and if the hunting didnt happen the animals would still be shot for meat.

 

2. Hunting near national parks or in other "wild" areas.

 

This is a more difficult one to answer as there are so many variables. Is the area adjecent to an unfenced national park and therefore likely to contain animals that wander in and out of the park ? Is it on a migration route ? Is the population stable and resident ? The key element for me has to be the levels of hunting against the population levels, and how sustainable it is.

In the case of lions, hyenas and wild dogs for instance, its not enough to say that the population growth rate is say 10% and so we'll allow a 5% hunting quota as that doesnt take account of the group hunting element - killing one member of a pride or pack can make it non-viable and lead to the pack or pride breaking up.

Whether the hunter is after leopards or kudu or anything else, the sustainability question has to be key (and include the impact on neighbouring areas), but also the funding question is important - i.e. is the money going back to help the local community and wildlife or is it going to central government (or a corrupt official).

 

My attitude to hunting is definitely that I dont like it, cant understand why people want to do it, but recognise that some people do enjoy it and spend a lot of money doing it, and that it can have benefits in some cases.

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When it comes to animals being killed, shot, hunted etc , I would be the first to stand up and speak on their behalf for I believe that all life forms have the right to live in peace, whether it be in the wild, zoo, game farm, where ever they may be living...

We, as humans have a choice and some peoples' choices are diferent to others and it's what makes us unique. We may not agree with someone else's choice but we can not intefere with it.

Thetexaskid joined as a member and as a safaritalk member, he has a right to post a question and by doing so, he stirred the pot, rocked the boat, call it whatever, and by doing so, he got us all into a discussion.

We all care about Africa and that is why we are members of safritalk and it's what makes safritalk so special.

 

Everyone's opinion, input, feedback counts and sometimes, we just need to agree to disagree and leave it at that!

 

Jochen, your contribution has always been appreciated by everyone and I always thought of you as the local comedian but has never got myself to tell you so.

 

Ross

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I hope you reconsider, jochen, because I appreciate your input...the serious bits and the fun. The fun, which you helped pioneer, plus nyama's suggestion, even led me to get a decent African bird field guide at long last (it's in the mail and I'll have it in a week or so). Now I suppose I should start looking for one on African reptiles. Trouble is, I need more good field guides on Australian wildlife, and there's only a certain amount of money to go around :)

 

So please stick around.

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So now thetexaskid has gone on his merry little way totally happy that his thoughts on "Bunny Huggers" are correct.

 

Another great divide between the two factions, hunter & conservationist!

 

If every time a hunter approaches us, we ridicule his interest we will never be able to open a dialog & influence his attitude.

 

We may never agree but as long as we offend we will never have influence & we will never make a difference in conservation.

 

So are we just happy to sit at our 'puters, being self righteous, blah! blah! blahing away about conservation & doing little to help.

 

Surely we need to spread the conservation word?

Not blast away at those with different views!

:):angry: :angry:

 

Great post nappa!

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I think hunters can be divided into two fairly distinct groups - the ones who are reposnsible and follow the rules, and the ones that just care about getting the trophy and will break any rules to get it. I dont know what percentage of hunters fall into which category though.

 

In my life I have known some very ethical and conservation minded hunters (both professional hunters and "recreational" hunters). I have also seen some absolutely despicable hunting practices, but since I never associated myself with the "yobbo beer cans and braais see how much you can shoot" style of hunters I can not really say how many of each variety of hunter there are out there anymore (also I have not mixed in that scene for many years now). Many may be surprised to know that some of Africa's leading conservationist photo safari guides started out as professional hunters, and that their conservation mindset was with them in both professions. I personally know a very good and well respected safari guide in the Lower Zambezi who alternates between professional hunting and photo safari guiding.

 

The pro-hunting groups dont tend to discuss the issue which I think is actually counter productive - if they were to campaign against canned hunts then it would not only get this practice banned a lot quicker, but would also show that pro-hunting groups can work positively to get rid of some of the worst practices in hunting.

 

Amen!!

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One only has to look at the most hotly debated subjects on safaritalk. Without opening those subjects and expressing our opinions, we are fooling ourselves. Discussion and debate is what a forum is about.

If you chose not to be involved in the debate, there is plenty else in safaritalk that can interest you. Jochen, don’t pull out, it takes all the different people from all the different places with different ideas to make for discussions and debate. It makes for a vast pool of ideas and information exchange.

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The pro-hunting groups dont tend to discuss the issue which I think is actually counter productive - if they were to campaign against canned hunts then it would not only get this practice banned a lot quicker, but would also show that pro-hunting groups can work positively to get rid of some of the worst practices in hunting.

 

Amen!!

 

I know I said this thread had run its course for me, but do you think that they can't bring themselves to campaign against canned hunting because they see that it or something similar will be the only avenue left to them in due course? I can see an end to true wilderness areas eventually-- and that'll mean no photographic tourism and no hunting except in heavily-managed, probably fenced parks where wildlife repopulation will be an ongoing, artificial process. It may be decades, but it will happen.

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I know I said this thread had run its course for me, but do you think that they can't bring themselves to campaign against canned hunting because they see that it or something similar will be the only avenue left to them in due course? I can see an end to true wilderness areas eventually-- and that'll mean no photographic tourism and no hunting except in heavily-managed, probably fenced parks where wildlife repopulation will be an ongoing, artificial process. It may be decades, but it will happen.

 

My guess is that they dont want to openly campaign against canned hunting because they are worried that its the thin end of the wedge - i.e. once thats banned then the anti canned hunting people will then target other forms of hunting.

 

The other reason might be that many groups in the pro or anti hunting debate have reached the stage where they wont even consider anything that involves working with the opposite side of the debate.

 

I hope you're wrong about the wilderness areas eventually disappearing, but unless human populations stop expanding then its only a matter of time I'm afraid.

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I came across this forum a while back in the normal course of researching my 2009 Safari.

It came up again today on a search and I stopped in to page through this post to see where it went.

I figured I may as well register as I lurk here for African Travel info occassionally.

 

I am in my late 30's and have hunted my whole life. I have generalities and stereotypes of anti hunters much the same as some of you obviously have regarding sport hunters. I would say that making sweeping indictment of either side is probably pretty bad form and of little use.

 

Rather than try to itemize and refute each statement in this thread that I strongly disagree with I'll simply state the following.

 

I love the outdoors and being with animals, and spend considerable time, effort and money on conservation and habitat each year.

I detest canned hunting, hunting from vehicles or any other non-fair chase method.

I also grow weary of seeing people with very little hunting/conservation experience being able to pursue the most majestic animals only because of having deep pockets.

I have known hundreds of hunters since my start in the early 70's and never known a lawbreaker.

The positive effects of hunter dollars on conservation is well documented. Ask yourself where game populations would be without hunting? Would unchecked poaching, culling, or removal of animals detrimental to farming and ranching be preferable?

Do a little research and look at some of the largest conservation organizations when it comes to preservation of habitat worldwide that are member funded before you ask what hunters do for conservation.

 

Saying things like "if we insult every hunter who posts here will not give us the chance to change the way they think" makes me ask...."why do you anti hunters want to change the way I think?"

I guess that is the difference between "anti hunter" and non hunter.

What makes you think you are right?

Why can't my Nikon shoot the animals I am not hunting and my bow or rifle handle the animals I choose to pursue?

 

I get my meat from a different place than most of you. Unless you eat no meat, fish, chicken or wear no leather I'd say one of the ways I feed myself is a more wild and beautiful experience than most non-hunters. What animal has a better life and wild end????The beef steak raised confined, engineered and slaughtered....or the Gemsbok I may be lucky enough to track up, play the wind and position myself to cleanly kill.

 

I'm thankful and impressed that this topic did not spiral in a direction it could have. I wasn't raised to believe that someones opinions or beliefs are wrong just because they are not the same as mine.

 

That aside....Hello my name is Chris I am new here and love Africa and it's wildlife....look forward to getting to know you guys!

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Welcome Gooseblitz.

 

Passionate about Africa? Then we share common ground.

 

I look forward to your input.

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I am in my late 30's and have hunted my whole life. I have generalities and stereotypes of anti hunters much the same as some of you obviously have regarding sport hunters. I would say that making sweeping indictment of either side is probably pretty bad form and of little use.

 

I detest canned hunting, hunting from vehicles or any other non-fair chase method.

I also grow weary of seeing people with very little hunting/conservation experience being able to pursue the most majestic animals only because of having deep pockets.

 

I'm thankful and impressed that this topic did not spiral in a direction it could have. I wasn't raised to believe that someones opinions or beliefs are wrong just because they are not the same as mine.

 

That aside....Hello my name is Chris I am new here and love Africa and it's wildlife....look forward to getting to know you guys!

 

Welcome. I hope you enjoy it here.

 

I think a lot of the generalities made by both pro and anti hunters are because the two sides dont normally mix and talk. Because of that there is little opportunity to understand peoples views and so people generalise.

 

There seems to be a big divide in hunters between those like yourself and the ones I've spoken to, who believe in fair chase and are opposed to canned hunting, shooting from vehicles etc, and those who are purely interested in a trophy. Although I havent met or spoken to any of the latter sort, they clearly do exist in fairly large numbers or canned hunting wouldnt exist.

 

Hunting debates are always difficult as people do hold very strong views on the subject, whether they are pro or anti hunting.

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Hello my name is Chris...

Good to have you on board, Chris. Welcome.

 

There seems to be a big divide in hunters between those like yourself and the ones I've spoken to, who believe in fair chase and are opposed to canned hunting, shooting from vehicles etc, and those who are purely interested in a trophy. Although I havent met or spoken to any of the latter sort, they clearly do exist in fairly large numbers or canned hunting wouldnt exist.

The hunting community is changing, similar as the photographic market does. Beside the killing, is there such a big difference between canned hunting and the "six-paw" or "seven stars" photo safari? It's no longer about experiencing nature (with all its roughness and unpredictability) but all about getting the "trophy" with a minimum of personal effort and a maximum of amenities.

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Thank you for the welcome...People look for shortcuts in our fast food society. I agree that people look for canned hunts or they would not exist. They are doing themselves a terrible disservice.

I have no experience with the Photo Safari's you mentioned but anything worth great value in life comes through great effort and makes it all the more special.

 

The sense of pride in producing that perfect photo....the knowledge to get yourself in the territory of the animal you looking to photo, the work to get you and your gear in position, the wait the get the light right and the skill to use your equipement like a pro.... I just took up photography a year ago and there are alot fo similarities.

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Nyama,

 

How is a 6 paw safari similar to a canned hunt, exactly?

 

That's just the way today's market is, isn't it - all for a rush to make a quick Dollar? Like, even today's supposedly rustic safaris are probably 6 paw compared to the years of the past.

 

Likewise, hunters have their quick fix - all mostly for the Dollar - earning and spending - Most bang for the buck!!!

 

Glad there are still old-world style Hunters like Chris - who believes in conservation and fair play!

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Whilst I agree that both photographers and hunters are undertaking a "trophy" hunt, there is one subtle difference the animal being photographed does not die before being hung on my wall.

Well, not killed by the photographer at any rate... :rolleyes:

 

I also support the view generalised view that without hunting there would be far less wildlife but this is in my view a thing of the past.

Curious, why is the above view now a thing of the past? Conservation in the present, still needs whatever assistance it can get.

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I also support the view generalised view that without hunting there would be far less wildlife but this is in my view a thing of the past.

Curious, why is the above view now a thing of the past? Conservation in the present, still needs whatever assistance it can get.

 

 

Also, a photographic camp in a prime area generates far more revenue than a hunting camp. In terms of anti-poaching presence, as the hunting season is April-Sept in Bots for example, that leaves a minimal presence on the ground. Even when hunting is being conducted, the number of vehicles and movement is far less than a photographic operation.

 

On the periphery, in areas of human/wildlife conflict, then hunting does give an economic value and increases dispersal /animal homeranges.

 

Hunting farms in Namibia and SA are something completely different. Often small parcels of fenced land, say 4000 hectares, photographic safaris comparable to Botswana or Zambia are not viable. People will not pay top dollar for a small, less diverse area. Probably former farmland that has also degraded soemwhat too.

 

A lot of hunters in SA game farms, will visit 4/5 different fenced properties to get all their trophies. No photographic guest is going to pay the same as Botswana or Sabi Sands to do similar to a hunter.

 

Agreed, 1 hunter = more revenue than a single phototourist. The hunting lobby often use this to claim revenue generating. Though when you add all the income from the other 24 guests in the concession and over the whole year, it is a no brainer and far more sustainable.

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The reason that I say it is a thing of the past is because there are now so many more photographic camps. This increases substantially the amount of people on the ground and theoretically reduces the oppurtunities for poachers. Therefore the hunting fraternity is no longer the prime protector of wildlife areas.

We both must have different maps of Africa. I don't think that there has changed much in this decade.

 

For instance, how many concessions in Botswana have turned purely photographic since WS declared Kwedi as non-hunting area? I only know one: Selinda. And maybe a second in the near future (NG/5) if the government builds the new vet fence - but we'll loose that one to the cattle industry.

 

Agreed, 1 hunter = more revenue than a single phototourist. The hunting lobby often use this to claim revenue generating. Though when you add all the income from the other 24 guests in the concession and over the whole year, it is a no brainer and far more sustainable.

I'm not sure if this is also valid for non-prime areas.

 

I also have seen all the destruction to the environment caused by the construction of one of these modern photographic "tented" camps and I doubt that this is "far more sustainable".

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