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thetexaskid

buffalo hunting in mozambique?

106 posts in this topic

I would have to disagree in this instance...

Your example has one flaw - it just works in prime game areas. Also Mombo isn't the best example since it's located in a protected game reserve. In Namibia you certainly would get same results if MET decides to create low-density tourism concessions in Etosha. But these are not the areas Predator is talking about.

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I know that Mombo is not the best example, though it was a hunting concession til at least the mid to late 80's and not part of Moremi game reserve til the 1990's. With 4 camps, plus a mobile operation , the Jao concession must generate a similar income level.

 

I am unsure of the areas that predator is referring to, though I think that Namibia is possibly a different model to the rest of safari industry in how unique an environment it is. Prime game viewing is not the sole motivation of a namibia trip, there are attractions like desert elephants but it is also the landscape the are in. Though whether these areas could sustain the 6 paw, million dollar revenues is questionable. Though the article that did the comparison was based on relatively cheaper lodgings, which I think would generate a high enough occupancy.

 

I can see the benefit of hunters working in wet season ranges and maintaining a conservation presence on the periphery. Though in many countries, prime areas are still being used for non-consuptive utilisation of wildlife. As hunters want the prim areas for their clients much like photographic companies.

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Russel,

 

A few things.

It is completely natural for people to kill animals. It happens in mass every day; whether to protect your vegetables of for food; and like it or not you are party to that.

 

I have been reading the rest of your opinions; I take it they are your opinions. You make some pretty quick judgements. I know and accept that hunting concessions and outfitters can be dishonest, and the possibility of corruption exists, but they are kept in check and are by far the minority.

 

Its like saying you heard of a few priests that are paedophiles, therefore all priests are paedophiles. Religion is bad! The next priest you see being friendly to your kids you will go straight to the newspaper. It makes good reading. You are determined to justify your point.

 

Please, if you have facts about an outfitter that shows that he is reckless and dishonest; report him to the relative authorities so that he may be dealt with accordingly. Hunting associations have little patience for those people, as they are actually then poaching. But when it does happen, it makes good reading so we will all know about it.

 

I know we may differ in opinion, but please that is our opinion. My opinion is based on my first hand experience. I worry that the anti-hunting lobby will close hunting down much to the detriment of conservation in general. I believe that hunting and tourism are the engine and the wheels that drive the conservation industry.

 

You say many previous hunting camps have been converted. That’s great, but they wouldn’t have established themselves without hunting. But then some photographic camps could have gone the other way, and some could have given up conservation altogether.

 

I say again hunting is controlled and legal. If there is anything illegal it is called poaching and carries a penalty. Focus on the real enemy and point you military weapon on them.

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Russell,

 

Even the 5 paws and equivalents ought to rake in enough revenue throughout the year, if run and marketed efficiently? All of these, at a max of what 16-20 guests at one time could easily run at 80-90% occupancy for most of the year.

 

Wasn't it dropping lion numbers that brought the most recent ban on lion hunting in Botswana? Also, there was a report on the other forum that they were considering a ban on leopard hunting also ......... don't know if this has materialized though ........ there was also a report of a Hunting operator shooting a radio collared leopard violating the rules some time back, wasn't it?

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DikDik,

 

Our posts crossed ....... my post above was only in response to Russell prior one and not connected to your post that i have only now seen.

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It is completely natural for people to kill animals.

 

dikdik,

 

I appreciate your opinion, really, and do not disrespect it. But each one of us can easily find holes in each other's arguments, you in mine and me in yours.

 

It's also perfectly natural for people to kill people. It's built into us, the most violent and destructive species on earth. But whether it's right-- across-the-board correct-- will forever be argued, and of course in many cases it is universally regarded as wrong as well as illegal. Then the church declares 'thou shalt not kill' but often goes along with killing or shuts its eyes. Maybe it's legally right in wartime, maybe it is legally right in self-defence, and in some places legally OK to execute a murderer. I merely come from the point of view that it is wrong to kill animals for trophies. To me, that is murder because it has nothing to do with war, punishment, self-defence, food and shelter and other justifications.

 

When I saw your post, I was about to express my appreciation for the most recent posts of Russell and predator because they were informative and pretty knowledgeable...though only of academic interest to me as a person who sees no redeeming features in sport killing.

 

I was also going to suggest that we backtrack to the question which started the thread: going late june to mozambique buff hunting and was wondering if anyone has info. camp will be about 3 miles from zimbabwe border north of kruger. should be a good area if quess to see decent #'s of buffalo. any info appreciated

 

Nobody has answered it, primarily because none of us were inclined to, but also because, I suspect, our Africa experts don't know anyway. I expect thetexaskid knows more than any us, so maybe he can enlighten us a little. After all, he has chosen to go there; he must have a reason. Does he have any idea whether hunting management there is in good shape, or riddled with rule-breakers and corruption, and whether it has any transfrontier impact on such places as Kruger and Gonarezhou (I guess they are probably not close enough).

 

Related to that is madaboutcheetah's very early (post #3) attempt to engage thetexaskid in dialogue by asking what draws him to make the trip. I think that was a genuine question. It still hasn't been answered, and that's one of the reasons we thought a troll was at work. Answer?

 

Related again is jochen's much later question about what thetexaskid feels or thinks when his bullet kills his target. I don't think that was a rhetorical question. I believe it was genuine. I too would like to know what he feels, in his words.

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Well said John.

 

I suppose we must put everything in a box. We have different types of hunters; Trophy hunters; and regular hunters who hunt for the pot. We also get anti-hunters, and non hunters. You are welcome to be a non-hunter and just as you may be a non-smoker.

 

I can never understand what makes a man want to smoke, but it’s his choice, and he mustn’t blow his smoke in my face.

 

I don’t eat fish, but I love fishing. Is there something wrong with me? I mean I enjoy pulling the poor little fish out of the water by its mouth WITH A HOOK! I just torture the poor little fish for the heck of it. What kind of man am I?

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Some comments:

 

The hunting block south of Gonarezhou is run by a reputable South African operator.

 

Hunting concessions in Botswana are not by default hunting concessions, they are multi-purpose concessions. The bidding process is open to both photographic and hunting operators. It looks like photographic operators are not interested to build x-paw camps in certain areas.

 

The recent lion hunting ban in Botswana had nothing to do with trophy hunting, it was caused by an unforeseeable high number of killed lions due to human wildlife conflicts. There's also no rule against shooting collared animals, this is just an agreement between hunting operators and researchers.

 

I find this question regarding thetexaskid's feelings pretty nonsense. Do you expect some kind of emotional striptease here? All that in front of people who don't understand it at all?

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Besides you are quick to take photos of lions tearing into a dead animal. Double standards.

 

dikdik,

 

I find that statement ridiculous.

 

I do not have a problem with any creature (including humans) killing something because they have to eat to survive but going out to shoot something for a trophy is a completely different matter.

 

 

Geoff.

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DikDik,

 

I have sent you a PM in which I think it would prove this is not some anti-hunt lobby witch hunt. Which is also based on first hand experience of working in these countries.

 

If you have read my posts, I am not suggesting that hunting is not beneficial in certain areas. Though not in prime game areas, where, profits can be made from engaging in successful phototourism, which generates vast sums of revenue by comaparison. Hunters always argue that they operate in thick mopane areas where photographic tourists would not like to go. This is certainly true in some cases, though the argument does not always stand up to scrutiny. As I have already advocated, I do not have a problem with hunting taking place on the periphery near human habitation or in the wet season ranges. (for those unsure about the hunting industry, it lasts from April to September in most countries, during the dry season) So I have agreed that hunting has its place, though it should be phased out if possible becasue of the negative impacts it has been seen to have on numbers and dynamics.

 

Whilst I agree that hunting can protect areas in their infancy, like the Niassa reserve, the reason that hunting camps are seen to have protected areas is historic. They protected areas in a different era, devoid of mass tourism and where the phototourism indistry was restricted to those in country, which makes hunting traditionally, the higher revenue earner until recently.

 

As for killing animals, is it natural to kill , yes, for self-preservation, not for sport. As for hunting associations having little time for people that break rules, I would ask this question, why are the pro-hunting lobby, if conservationists, not speaking out so strongly about the canned hunting debate?

 

Whilst hunters may protect areas, the behaivour seen in certain parts of Zimbabwe question whether they are truly conservationists or out to make a quick buck. Especially oafter the overshooting by a south african company in the Gwai conservency. Look at Mbiza pan in Hwange. Its pump always seems to be breaking for some apparent reason during the hunting season. Not the the vehicle tracks from the hunting concession 300m away over the railway track has much to do with it. Or their salt licks and nicely pumped waterholes just in their concession.

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Some comments:

 

The hunting block south of Gonarezhou is run by a reputable South African operator.

 

Hunting concessions in Botswana are not by default hunting concessions, they are multi-purpose concessions. The bidding process is open to both photographic and hunting operators. It looks like photographic operators are not interested to build x-paw camps in certain areas.

 

The recent lion hunting ban in Botswana had nothing to do with trophy hunting, it was caused by an unforeseeable high number of killed lions due to human wildlife conflicts. There's also no rule against shooting collared animals, this is just an agreement between hunting operators and researchers.

 

I find this question regarding thetexaskid's feelings pretty nonsense. Do you expect some kind of emotional striptease here? All that in front of people who don't understand it at all?

 

Nyama, I agree that there are certain areas that will not be beneficial for photographic tourism. Though the majority of delta concessions will offer the prime game viewing options that I refer to. Whilst the lion ban for hunting was brought in for PAC, it is also recognised that the new President is anti hunting.

 

As for "thetexaskid"'s feelings, most of us have particapated in a walking safari and know the the thrill of the chase dervived from tracking an animal. Plus, there is certain enjoyment in firing a weapon. Whilst I can understand this process for finding a Kudu for example. Though most times they will find it in the vehicle, drive 300m away, then stalk it. So not your traditional bushman hunting.

 

I find a lion hunt in the wild to effectively to be a canned hunt. The setting up of a number of baits. See which one they strike, set up a blind, wait for it to return a second time then shoot it. Hardly the romantic chase that hunters like to portray.

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to answer predator-i (as all my friends) are opposed to "canned" hunts. we dont get it. we like the fair chase "hunting" aspect of hunting. i dont like high fences either, here in texas or in africa, that is why my father and i are going to moz instead of s africa. my mom and wife are going with cameras while we are out and we are all doing a 2 day photo safari in kruger at end of trip with our PH.

 

on a personal hunting note-we have no desire to shoot a lion, elephant or most other animals. most lion hunts i've seen the lion is just lying there licking itself, while its fine for others just doesnt appeal to me. buffs are pentiful and dangerous that appeals to us, especially "dugga boys" that are past their prime and breeding and living alone.

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If the lion is just lying around and the PH hunts it, i am of the opinion that the lion possibly is habituated to humans - in all likelihood from a photo safari zone. Am i wrong in my assumption? I have seen some lions in Botswana that are new to the photo area that just about flee away from the vehicles.

 

For example, when Milky Eye and his buddy(Current Selinda pride males) were first observed by game vehicles they were pretty skittish and hated the vehicles. Ofcourse, now they have been around vehicles for almost two plus years and are photogenic..........

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to answer predator-i (as all my friends) are opposed to "canned" hunts. we dont get it. we like the fair chase "hunting" aspect of hunting. i dont like high fences either, here in texas or in africa, that is why my father and i are going to moz instead of s africa. my mom and wife are going with cameras while we are out and we are all doing a 2 day photo safari in kruger at end of trip with our PH.

 

on a personal hunting note-we have no desire to shoot a lion, elephant or most other animals. most lion hunts i've seen the lion is just lying there licking itself, while its fine for others just doesnt appeal to me. buffs are pentiful and dangerous that appeals to us, especially "dugga boys" that are past their prime and breeding and living alone.

 

 

Based on what you have written here, I would categorise you as what I would call a traditional hunter. Someone who enjoys the fair chase, the danger and being in the great outdoors. I certainly understand from your perspective how lion hunting is not particularly appealing for the lack of the formentioned reasons. I would like to see the demographics of those participating in Lion hunts. Wealthy, western, probably people wanting the prestige of the trophy rather than experience the true hunting experience and with few conservation principles.

 

That said, I am sure that visitors in the photographic industry are on the same ego based trips to brag. Though their actions, whilst maybe annoying to some in a safari camp, are not so selfish as to deny other tourists the opportunity to view a trophy animal.

 

BTW, it is "dagga boys" not dugga. I think in terms of these old Kakulis (zambian phrase), their inability to stay with the herd means they are no longer breeding and old in in the legs. So the their take off is seen as sustainable. Whereas many other trophy animals, it is based on the size of their tusks, mane or horns. Which is not representative of its sexual peak, dynamic influences etc etc

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Wasn't it dropping lion numbers that brought the most recent ban on lion hunting in Botswana?

 

My understanding is that the authorities were concerned by the number of lions being killed. The vast majority were being killed illegally due to conflict with the community, but that is quite a tough problem to solve - suspending trophy hunting is a quick and easy fix so thats why the action was taken.

 

The problem is that unless action is taken to tackle the more difficult problem - that of conflict with the community then the number of lions killed wont reduce significantly (if it drops at all). Human-Wildlife confict is a growing problem and although tackling it isnt easy, its an issue that has to be dealt with for the lions and other wildlife to survive alongside people.

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Based on what you have written here, I would categorise you as what I would call a traditional hunter. Someone who enjoys the fair chase, the danger and being in the great outdoors. I certainly understand from your perspective how lion hunting is not particularly appealing for the lack of the formentioned reasons. I would like to see the demographics of those participating in Lion hunts. Wealthy, western, probably people wanting the prestige of the trophy rather than experience the true hunting experience and with few conservation principles.

 

I'd guess that most hunters are wealthy (they need to be to afford the fees), and most of the people I've seen at the gun check-in counter at Windhoek airport have been Western.

 

I think you're right - there are traditional or sport hunters who like the fair chase and the risk, and others who just want a trophy to brag about.

 

I've always thought the "fair chase" term was unrealistic as surely a man with a big gun has an advantage, but from what I've read and people I've spoken to, I can see that things dont always go as planned and a considerable number of hunters (including experienced professionals) have been seriously injured or killed over the years by the animals they were hunting. It obviously varies depending on the area (e.g. dense vegetation or semi-desert) as to what chance the animal has, and whether the hunt is on foot and well away from the vehicles (and probably a host of other factors). I did bump into a hunter on my last trip and they'd spent 10 hours tracking a buffalo in the hot sun before getting a shot. Whether you agree with hunting or not, that takes some doing, and means if anything had gone wrong they'd have had serious problems getting medical attention in a hurry - especially as there was no cellphone coverage in the area.

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I was also wanting to see the overall opinions on the different types of trophy hunting. If it took place, near a national park devoid of major predators, or they were were just not on the quota, how would your attitude change? Is it the killing of predators, which is not sustainable due to the pressures on dyanmics etc that people are so opposed to?

 

Impala and other buck are not effected by changes in dynamics. Only a possible fall in the genetic pool. Could you stomach this occuring? The only problem that then emerges, is that the hunting is no longer as large a revenue earner becasue the prime species are off the list. It does not also address the lions in human conflict areas being given an economic value for conservation purposes. However, it would get a use out of mopane belts in certain areas, the only problem being, skittish animals.

 

A POLL PLEASE:

 

 

Another aspect to consider is the green hunt. Instead of firing of a lead round, it is a tranquilizer dart that is used. Ofcourse there is no trophy, but companies have been able to fund rhion conservation through this method.

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Nyama, I agree that there are certain areas that will not be beneficial for photographic tourism. Though the majority of delta concessions will offer the prime game viewing options that I refer to.

I'm looking at WHOLE Botswana and not just the Delta. What about the western Kalahari, all the concessions south of Chobe, or the huge concessions in Kgalagadi?

 

We don't need to discuss the Delta and Linyanti concessions. I guess the last few hunting concessions in this area will sooner or later be history. (And a few people will certainly cry 'Fowl', if Kwando and Kwara's rates jump up to Selinda level.)

 

Interestingly the Jakotsha people of NG/24 are still waiting for an investor since WS gave up Jedibe in 1999. Looks like photographic operators are very selective, even in the Delta. In this case the designation of the concession as "strictly photographic" is positive for the wildlife but works clearly against the local community. I'm not sure about the long-term consequences of this...

 

it is also recognised that the new President is anti hunting.

The whole scheme of letting local communities participate in tourism is based on quotas. The land board leases a concession to a community, along with hunting rights and quotas, and the community then sells these rights (sub-lease) and quotas to a private investor or operator. I doubt that Mr Khama will change this, unless he plans to bring some of his communities into real trouble.

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Well said John.

 

I suppose we must put everything in a box. We have different types of hunters; Trophy hunters; and regular hunters who hunt for the pot. We also get anti-hunters, and non hunters. You are welcome to be a non-hunter and just as you may be a non-smoker.

 

I can never understand what makes a man want to smoke, but it's his choice, and he mustn't blow his smoke in my face.

 

I don't eat fish, but I love fishing. Is there something wrong with me? I mean I enjoy pulling the poor little fish out of the water by its mouth WITH A HOOK! I just torture the poor little fish for the heck of it. What kind of man am I?

 

I appreciate your response, dik dik.

 

Your last question doesn't require an answer, and I guess you don't expect one either. But it's quite relevant to the kind of person I used to be: I'm an ex-smoker & ex-fisherman :D and ex-animal killer (sport) so I understand why people do all these things even if I don't understand our stupidity.

 

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but I used to shoot animals for "fun" when I was very young. I know how I felt when I did it, so unlike nyama, I don't believe it's ridiculous to want to know how somebody else feels. I felt absolutely nothing for the animal when I did it; it was just there to be killed and I had just reached adulthood and this act helped prove it. Occasionally, I would feel a tinge of guilt straight after the killing but it soon went away. I changed over the years, but then I didn't have a family tradition of hunting. Maybe those who grow up in that kind of environment and enjoy it as young people are the ones not likely to change.

 

I'd still like to see a more detailed reply from 'thetexaskid' but I guess I won't get one. I mean, old blokes past their prime (like me) are allowed to live their lives out in peace, but a dagga boy doesn't matter, he can be wasted?

 

I'll get off the merry-go-round now because this discussion has run its course for me.

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I think you are probably right this topic has run its course.

 

I have enjoyed this debate and have learned quite a bit. Thanks Russell and John. I understand where you come from. Nyama, you must be well connected, your knowledge on Africa is amazing. Even Jochen had a good rant and rave --- good on you.

 

I must say that I probably only see things a bit from my micro system, and see how sustainable utilization works in South Africa. I don’t believe there is any reason why it shouldn’t work in other sub Saharan Africa states. The subject of community land and community involvement is a new one for South Africa and I must say it is having its teething problems. Then the problem with hunting concessions on the fringes of Big game reserves has its problems, but I still think it works, and yes closer controls are sometimes needed.

 

As for hunting predators; I think we should be more specific; Lions, leopard and cheetah and of course wild dog. Other predators like Jackal, caracal etc need different rules. Trophy hunting of lions has huge effect on lion family structure and diminishes the gene pool. Other animals are capable of recovering their numbers quickly.

 

Big game (trophy) hunters are collectors, and the holy grail is the big five. This is indeed a problem.

 

When this topic started, I thought skin and hair would fly, but it went down well. We could have just agreed to disagree!!

 

Cheers

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I think you are probably right this topic has run its course.

 

I have enjoyed this debate and have learned quite a bit. Thanks Russell and John. I understand where you come from. Nyama, you must be well connected, your knowledge on Africa is amazing. Even Jochen had a good rant and rave --- good on you.

 

My useful input in this thread is 0%. Would have liked to participate once the thread got going as should (as opposed to page 1). But my time was needed elsewhere.

 

I still have limited time so for now I'm gonna leave it at this; some important people are still missing on this board, and for reason I cannot say I know they cannot share their views right now. Bt when they do, be prepared to change your current POV.

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I always worry when the terms "Important people - Important person - VIP" are used!

 

In general life....What makes someone more important than another????

(Exceptions... Doctor / Patient... that sort of thing!)

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some important people are still missing on this board, and for reason I cannot say I know they cannot share their views right now. Bt when they do, be prepared to change your current POV.

So I read the wrong research papers, listened to the wrong NGOs, spoke to the wrong people in Africa, and all my knowledge is ill-founded, because I still hadn't the chance to listen to the ONEs with the real insight?

 

What an arrogance!

 

 

What makes someone more important than another????

Believers.

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As for hunting predators; I think we should be more specific; Lions, leopard and cheetah and of course wild dog. Other predators like Jackal, caracal etc need different rules. Trophy hunting of lions has huge effect on lion family structure and diminishes the gene pool. Other animals are capable of recovering their numbers quickly.

 

Hyenas, Lions and wild dogs are social animals which rely on teamwork for hunting and survival, so hunting these species is far more damaging than say leopards which are solitary animals.

 

 

When this topic started, I thought skin and hair would fly, but it went down well. We could have just agreed to disagree!!

 

I did worry that the topic could easily have become a slanging match but given the emotive nature of the subject, its been remarkably peaceful. Its nice to hear various different views (even if not everyone agrees with them), and there are some very knowledgable people here so all sorts of interesting facts come out of these discussions.

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So I read the wrong research papers, listened to the wrong NGOs, spoke to the wrong people in Africa, and all my knowledge is ill-founded, because I still hadn't the chance to listen to the ONEs with the real insight?

 

What an arrogance!

 

Had a rough night, nyama?

 

It is quite arrogant of you to interpret my message in the way that you do, and concluding that I am arrogant.

 

Actually, is this thread about you?

 

Maybe I should end this post with a similar remark as yours:

 

"What an ego!"

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