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The Naming of Animals


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#21 Tomas

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 07:34 AM

The only thing I have about naming is that, people starts to think of animals as humans or with human feelings and desires. This is not especially good and it is not doing the animals a favor instead it makes people think of animals from a Disney perspective. 

Lions kill and sometimes even eat animals while there are alive other predators do the same, not to talk about what goes on among insects, this is not cruel it is the way of nature. Cruel is a human felling it does not exist in the wild no animal’s except a few like the apes has anything close to human feelings! Animals are not humans we are alike in many ways but so very different in others and again animals are not humans.

So if it was not that so many people think human when they hear a wild animal being named I would have nothing against it.



#22 Geoff

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 09:43 AM

@Tomas  Humans (as well as lions) kill. It is nature (as you say) and humans are animals.


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#23 Tomas

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:12 AM

@Tomas  Humans (as well as lions) kill. It is nature (as you say) and humans are animals.

Can you develop on that what do you mean?



#24 Geoff

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:56 AM

@Tomas  You state that to name an animal makes people think that they have human feeling & desires. I don't think that at all. By naming an animal it allows others in a discussion to know which particular individual you're talking about. I don't care whether a creature is called Fred or 'M1' but i still may want to know who it is.

 

You then stated that lions kill as if that has relevance to naming a creature. Yes they do (for many reasons) and I just said that humans kill as well. It was a round about way for me to say that all humans are animals but we name each other so we know who we are talking about.

 

As for what feelings a wild animal has... Humans are not smart enough to know what emotions they do and do not feel.


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#25 Tomas

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 11:02 AM

@Tomas  You state that to name an animal makes people think that they have human feeling & desires. I don't think that at all. By naming an animal it allows others in a discussion to know which particular individual you're talking about. I don't care whether a creature is called Fred or 'M1' but i still may want to know who it is.

 

You then stated that lions kill as if that has relevance to naming a creature. Yes they do (for many reasons) and I just said that humans kill as well. It was a round about way for me to say that all humans are animals but we name each other so we know who we are talking about.

 

As for what feelings a wild animal has... Humans are not smart enough to know what emotions they do and do not feel.

Your first statment that you dont  think that people look on an animal like a human if it gets a human name I think othervise, ofcourse not everyone but many tend to do so, If not I dont have any real problems with naming animals.

Your other statments I dont understand at all maybe you missunderstod me.



#26 Geoff

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 11:05 AM

 

 

Your other statments I dont understand at all maybe you missunderstod me.

 

 

 

Yes, perhaps so...


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#27 Tomas

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 11:59 AM

In short for me naming animals is not a problem if this practice do not change the way we see animals. If we give names and then start to think of them like humans then I see it as a problem.

I have seen to many problems in the pet industry where animals get treated as humans and not like an animal. Unfortunately also wild animals goes into this industry and the lack of care is obvious, sometimes just because someone that have no clue to real animal behavior or requirements instead applies humans felling and emotion in an attempt to understand the animal and give the animal a good care. The result is not too good and even deadly for either the animal or sometimes even its owner.

To treat a fellow human being as an animal is not ok but it is just as bad to treat a animal like a human!



#28 douglaswise

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 05:17 PM

@Geoff:  I am fascinated with the last line in your post # 24.  It is a sweeping generalisation, unbacked by any sources of evidence.  For all I know, you may be an experimental psychologist or neuroscientist, but you don't say so.  It is my opinion, which you'll no doubt ignore, that you are profoundly wrong. 



#29 Geoff

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:17 PM

@douglaswise   I was wondering if you'd drop by.... It seems to me that you do not like anyone having a view different to yours.

 

Instead of playing the man when some one has a different opinion why don't you post hard evidence backing your claims.

Unfortunately I've seen none of that forthcoming and I've been turned off reading many of the threads where you have posted.

 

The glaring example of where your arrogant ignorance shone through was your attack on the Chinese woman wearing a face mask. I was appalled by that idiotic comment.

 

@Game Warden delete this post if you see fit.


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#30 Game Warden

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:41 PM

I will kindly remind members of the following topic: I don't see the need to delete or edit the above comments but appreciate members discussing things in a well mannered tone. Imagine we are all sat round the camp fire after dinner listening to the nocturnal sounds of Africa. I think we all have many things in common which aren't always expressed well in words.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt


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#31 bettel

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:41 AM

@douglaswise, could you please discuss your opinion little bit more? Do you think that people already know everything about animals' feelings? I think animals have a lot of common feelings with humans:  they can feel comfort, they can be stressed, they can feel helpless, they can feel strong sympathy (or antipathy), they can feel fear, they can feel irritated, they can be in a good or in a bad mood, etc. And I am not talking about apes; elephants, lions, horses, dolphins (well, a lot of social mammals) demonstrate very wide range of feelings/emotions :). And people learn more and more every year. 

 

I am also not sure that we all understand term "to treat animals like humans" the same way. In my mind, to treat an animal like a human is to understand that an animal can have its own personality, that it is an alive creature, that it has its own needs and that it requires some respect to its needs. 


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#32 douglaswise

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 11:46 AM

@bettel:  You asked me to discuss my opinion more fully.  The whole subject of what is understood by emotions in non-human animals is quite complex and, to an extent, opinions differ among those scientists that make a study of the subject. I attempted to review this in some detail in a previous discussion about a year ago, during the course of which I provided access to some of the relevant academic publications.  To avoid repitition, might I refer you to the Safaritalk Debate entitled "One of Kenya's Most-Loved Guides' questionable behaviour" (25/3/15)?

 

@Geoff: There is certainly room for differences of opinion about the likely quality of conscious emotional feelings experienced by non-human animals.  What I objected to was your comment that humans are not smart enough to know what animals do or don't feel, delivered without any qualification.  You were, in fact, offering your own opinion and not a generally accepted truth.  I was merely suggesting that alternative opinions exist.  If you find that to be arrogant and ignorant, so be it.    



#33 Game Warden

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 12:05 PM

One can object or offer difference in opinion, but it is the manner in which those objections or opinions are expressed which will influence how the discussion develops from that point onwards, hence my reminder to read this topic...


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#34 Towlersonsafari

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 12:08 PM

Does not the cat of naming an animal   have different causes and indeed different functions? for example naming a pet allows one to have a deeper connection with that pet. it allows everyone to know ( who know the animal) what one is talking about, it helps create a bond. We have a cat that we have named, but we don't think of it as human ( although of course it can talk and often  helps my wife nag me for particular failings and errors) We have  names for the male badger that comes into the garden. We do not approach it, we do not ascribe human feelings to it, but we understand that on a certain level it has similar emotions of a basic kind, and we can speculate on what else it might feel or experience. As research develops we are as has been said before, learning more about how similar in many respects to humans animals are. that I would hope means that they deserve consideration, respect  and care ( ironically I was going to use humane treatment ) Perhaps maintain a wild animal does something to correct an imbalance.We read reference and guide books describing animal behavior but can forget that not all animals of a certain species act the same way. I once read that there can be particularly bold and aggressive members of the same species, and more timid examples but the difference with humans is that one human can be bold in some situations, and timid in others. all thinks being equal  ( so not driven by hunger) that is not the case for an individual lion for example


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#35 Tomas

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 06:53 PM

One can object or offer difference in opinion, but it is the manner in which those objections or opinions are expressed which will influence how the discussion develops from that point onwards, hence my reminder to read this topic...

I really like to discuss it makes me question my knowledge and get more. I think that discussion is about respect and try to understand the other parties in a discussion. I think that as soon we start to go away from the subject and steer it towards the other persons: knowledge, character, and so on, when we are trying to win instead of trying to learn then we lose.

Trying to "win" by attacking the other person instead of his opinion is a big no no.


Keep to the subject it is not always easy but we should all try to do that and not go into how the other person behaves. Of course if questioned we have to answer but we can do so in a well-mannered way.
 

(Outside the topic)
I wish I could discuss in my own language, my written English is not the best and I suffer from dyslexia so it is hard enough in Swedish (o: With that said dyslexia is not only bad it helps you a lot also, especially when it comes to trouble shooting, solving an obstacle or a problem

Cheers and I hope that the safari talk forum can continue as good as it seems to do so far. I have seen brilliant example of really good arguments where the participates have been truly professional even when they have been of totally different opinions.


Edited by Tomas, 31 March 2016 - 07:11 PM.

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#36 egilio

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 01:29 AM

like @douglaswise says emotions in animals is a difficult topic to research, and not all scientists in that field agree (but I don't think there's a field in which all scientists agree on everything anyway). Like @bettel mentions, a lot of human emotions, have been detected in animals. In fact, in orcas for example, the part of the brain which in humans controls emotions is much larger than in humans. Does this mean they have more/better emotions? It could be...in cats the part of the brain which controls things like jumping and balance is bigger than in humans, and they're certainly better at that. 

I also agree with @Geoff people's skill sets vary. Some people are good runners, others not, some people are very good socially, others are not, some people show emotions more than others, some people are more sensitive to experiencing emotions, some just don't experience them, other experience them but don't recognize it and find it hard to deal with.

 

But I think, but I'm not sure, is that emotions in humans can be pro-active, while in animals I haven't see that being detected (but prove me wrong). I can get happy because I know I go on holiday in a few weeks for example. 

Another thing is that in many cases a human interpretation of behavior and a label of a human emotion put on the animal. That's actually very hard to do, and I think should be avoided by those who are not familiar with the animal concerned unless you have spent much time with that animal. For many people it's hard enough to recognize the emotions of other people especially with people from different cultures, let alone recognizing emotions of animals, who have different ways of expressing themselves, and different emotion capabilities.  


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#37 Game Warden

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 08:20 AM

I have deleted what I feel to be a very insulting post and subsequent follow up informing me and I have messaged the member who posted it.

 

Thanks, Matt.


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#38 Tom Kellie

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 08:46 AM

~ While a guest in Porini Lion in February, 2016, I noticed a small difference between guides concerning animal names.

 

My guide, who was shortly thereafter @bettel's guide, exclusively used Maasai names for individual cheetahs, leopards and lion prides.

 

Other guests at dinner referred to sightings, mentioning English names.

 

As we'd visited the same sightings, albeit at different times, I wondered about the seeming discrepancy.

 

It turned out that the guides followed their own individual naming protocols, in accordance with what they thought might be best.

 

At Leopard Hills, Sabi Sands, South Africa in January, 2016, when the ranger heard over the radio a ranger from another lodge refer to one male lion from a 4-member coalition as “Pretty Boy”, his disgust was palpable!

 

When @Anthony Gitau and I are out on safari, no names are used — except for ‘celebrity cheetah’ Malaika — while we use descriptive characteristics, which are a kind of name in and of themselves.

 

Tom K.


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#39 Bugs

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 10:03 AM

What about the animals without names? Are they any less important?

 

We had a leopard identification project in Limpopo Lipadi reserve. It worked well, as we were able to establish that there were around 20 different leopards in only one half of the reserve where most of the game driving takes place. This is an extraordinary high concentration of leopards. I would prefer that we didn't give them names, rather numbers. 

 

Going back to the days when I had the game farm, we started to get familiar with certain animals, and they got names. Like Jeffery the rat that made a noise in the ceiling every night. I have also named my Sat Nav - Nellie; and named my old landcover;- Hippocrockadonkey. I guess, we are human, and thats how we work. We name hurricanes and cyclones, I guess we can name anything. 


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There's none so blind as those who will not see.


#40 egilio

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 01:32 AM

Of course animals without names are not less important. But it's just easier to identify them by a name, where that name is cryptic (ie, a number of something like 'T1'), descriptive (ear notch) or more of an actual name. I don't think it matters.

Why is it such an issue to name an animal, but at the same time it's not an issue at all to name groups of animals (ie, big pride, tsaro prade, vundu pack etc)?


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