Jump to content




See all Safaritalk Special Offers

Message to Guests.

Welcome to Safaritalk where we have been talking Safaris and wildlife conservation since 2006. As a guest you're welcome to read through certain areas of the forum, but to access all the facilities and to contribute your experience, ask questions and get involved, you'll need to be a member - so register here: it's quick, free and easy and I look forward to having you as a Safaritalker soon. Matt.


Photo

Attitudes towards culling

yellowstone bison elephant hwange badgers brumby brumbies culling

  • Please log in to reply
64 replies to this topic

#41 Tom Kellie

Tom Kellie

    Order of the Pith

  • Members
  • 6,475 posts
  • Local time: 09:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central CHINA
  • Category 1:Tourist (regular visitor)
  • Category 2:---

Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:20 PM

@Tom Kellie:  You are obviously a kind and courteous man and constantly heap praise on the contributions of others.  It is my understanding that you are also a professional teacher of conservation matters.  For this reason, I found your response to @BobsCreek to be profoundly irritating.  You have taken his assertions as correct.  They are not.

 

I do have other information that could be of interest to you.  My wife and I recently returned from a week that combined Porini Mara and Porini Lion.  In passing, I should say that we had an excellent time at both camps.  I preferred the former because the game density was much higher and there were no competing vehicles at sightings.  The apparent exception was cats -which we saw at both camps, but more at the latter. However, the quite heavy vehicle density there may just have made them easier to find. It is highly likely that the aberrant weather accounted for the higher density of game around Porini Mara.  Everything was beautifully green and there was a large surplus of ungrazed long grass which will be potentially to the detriment of wildebeest when they return in numbers.  Anyway, I'm getting off the subject.  I wished to put my "angry old man" hat back on again and mention one of our most interesting Mara sightings which, unfortunately, we failed to photograph.  It consisted of a higher primate on a game drive wearing a paper face mask - to whit a female Chinese tourist.  I regard this as an insult to the Mara atmosphere and very bad manners.  On a more positive note, there was a Chinese conservation worker at the camp who styled himself "Simba".  He claimed to be the first Chinese conservationist to be concerned with African wildlife and his aim was to make China internationally recognised as the leading country for conservation in the world - somewhat imperialist I thought and not an easy task!  However, he has apparently started an NGO, fully funded by private Chinese citizens and is helping the local community and the conservancy by funding lion-proof bomas and vehicles (mainly motor bikes) for rangers.  At the time of our visit, he was organising a film crew to promote the cause.  His NGO pays for SWARA, an East African conservation-based magazine, to be translated into Chinese (or whatever the language is called) and distributed. He spends 4 months /annum in Kenya and then returns to China to conduct promotional work and fund raising.  It struck me as all very worthy.  I thought it might be a good thing if you and he made contact.  This could be arranged through Jake Grieves-Cook.      

 

~ @douglaswise

 

I'm truly sorry for having unintentionally posted a response which was unsatisfactory.

 

There being numerous gaps in my understanding, it's a step-by-step process of sifting through conflicting evidence.

 

That I may have fallen short is regrettable but unsurprising — since joining Safaritalk last year I've found how much I don't know.

 

I'm seldom in a position to authoritatively assess the posts of other Safaritalk members, generally extending the benefit of the doubt to them.

 

If in this case I made a poor judgment, I apologize. You may well be in a far better-informed position than I am.

 

There are constraints on the free flow of information where I work and live, which limits the depth and extent of my understanding.

 

**************************************************************************************

 

I'm glad to know that the visit of you and your wife to Porini Mara and Porini Lion went well.

 

As both you and @bettel were there last month, and I was at Porini Lion, those camps had a steady flow of Safaritalk members.

 

When I stayed in Porini Lion last month I also saw masks being worn during game drives, especially when crossing over into Masai Mara National Reserve.

 

Thank you for the tip about the NGO conservationist. I appreciate your bringing it my attention. Any positive effort to raise consciousness about wildlife conservation is welcome.

 

**************************************************************************************

 

Again, please forgive me for having written what may have been ignorant comments.

 

Week by week, with the help of you and other Safaritalk members, I'm endeavoring to improve my judgment.

 

It takes time, and throughout my life I've been a slower-than-average learner.

 

With Appreciation,

 

Tom K.



#42 egilio

egilio

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,533 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Category 1:Conservationist/Naturalist
  • Category 2:Ecologist

Posted 08 March 2016 - 06:21 PM

@egilio:  I think that you are partially correct.  However, I think you underestimate the importance/significance of brucellosis.  You have prompted me to read the open source scientific literature on the subject.  If people like @BobsCreek took the trouble to inform himself, he might understand the wider picture and be less vitriolic about farmers.  Scientists who have studied the subject have concluded that brucella transmission to cattle is more likely from individual bison than from elk.  This is apparently because bison calve in groups and elk separate themselves.  The infection is thus readily self-sustained in the former and not in the latter - because it is mainly spread between adults of the same and other species at calving.  When elk are artificially fed in winter and become concentrated in numbers in the same areas as cattle, they, too, represent a risk to cattle.

 

Vaccination is not totally effective and, long-term, eradication must be the goal.  However, the modern vaccine does allow one to differentiate between serological responses that indicate true infection and those that are the consequence of the vaccine itself.

 

 

Thanks for the extra information!

 

But elk feed grounds are still being used, which makes it more likely that brucellosis is sustained in elk. So on one hand they try to keep bison away from their cattle because of brucellosis, and on the other they keep practices which makes it more likely that elk will infect cattle. Sounds a bit odd (but that's what the US often is, odd).

 

Even if the vaccination is not totally effective, they never really are, why not vaccinate the cattle to prevent the spread of brucellosis from cattle to elk and bison. Stop feedgrounds to reduce/eliminate brucellosis in elk. And somehow reduce/eliminate it from bison on the long run too. But this gets a little off topic. 

 

@Chobe Clive Couldn't it be that there is an increase in human-wildlife conflict in the area you talk about, not because of an increase in elephants (of which the population is stable), or people but because of reduced food availability for the elephants, causing them to forage closer to villages/fields? 



#43 ellenhighwater

ellenhighwater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 147 posts
  • Local time: 05:09 PM
  • Gender:Female
  • Category 1:Safari Guide
  • Category 2:Wildlife Photographer/Artist

Posted 10 March 2016 - 05:38 PM

I thought this was a well written article on culling and the current situation in Bubye in that it shows the complexity involved in managing species like lions:

 

http://voices.nation...n-conservation/


  • Tom Kellie likes this

#44 Towlersonsafari

Towlersonsafari

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Local time: 02:09 AM
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Northamptonshire
  • Category 1:Tourist (regular visitor)
  • Category 2:---

Posted 14 March 2016 - 05:53 PM

Attitudes of "sporting" estates in the Cairngorms National Park only 2 years after  Scottish Natural Heritage called for them to exercise voluntary restraint is "Whoo hoo! lets kill all the Mountain Hares we can find!" if recent pictures of a truck full of dead mountain hares is anything to go by. Mountain Hares are declining in numbers but because these same sporting estates think that the hares contribute to red grouse getting louping ill virus so that there are less of them to be killed for profit and pleasure. There is of course no compelling evidence that culling hares increase grouse numbers but why let that get in the way of a good cull? I am sure it is a coincidence that these same estates are experiencing lower than expected birds of prey numbers including Golden Eagles.For the depressing pictures look on the  heraldscotland site



#45 Tomas

Tomas

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Local time: 04:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iringa Tanzania
  • Category 1:Tour Operator
  • Category 2:Resident in Africa/Former resident

Posted 21 March 2016 - 12:40 PM

I am a hunter and have been 4 years in a hunting/forestry University. Hunting professionally in Europe and Africa and my view of culling is as follows.

Culling is only necessary when we have already let a problem get out of hand. It is our fault!
I will give you some example of hunting, culling


1. Moose hunting, in Sweden on license are a tradition and a way of living at least in the northern parts. Hunters are the ones who wants to shoot less and forestry want to shoot a lot. Hunters want a stable and big population and forestry interests want a small stable population we usually end up in between witch is fine. This give recreation to a lot of people, money to local communities, healthy meat for food a stable and viable moose population and not too much damage on forestry interest or on bad traffic accidents moose-car. Works fine no culling necessary!


2 Lion hunting (not canned hunting) this hunt is problematic but if done right really ok and takes only of the old males that is not contributing to the population and at the same time bringing in money that make the local communities to accept the lions. Done wrongly it has a bad effect on the lion population but done correct no real effect on the population. In the nat parks the lion population normally regulate themselves ok, at least in Tanzania. It is in the more populated areas with animal husbandry that they can be a threat both to lives and livestock.

3. Culling of elephants in a safari park that do not have room for too many elephants and nowhere for them to go outside the park. This is regrettably necessary sometimes and means that we have let a problem get to far. 

4. Culling of badgers! Never herd of but in Sweden we hunt them and have minor issues with them but we do not have the same cattle diseases as they do in Britain. They are hard to get down in numbers if you don’t poison them but that is in my eyes a crime  

Then should we have culling or hunting or birth control pills? Well I like the way of hunting done properly the best, it is the only really good alternative in an environment that we have created where animals cannot move as before or we are not ok with the damage and danger wildlife pose. We take care of a natural resource without polluting, no bad drugs for the animals, they live free until they are shoot if I had to choose I would take an elephant life any day instead of a pig life that is some month at the most stuck indoors in a 1by3 meter!

I love animals but I also love people and that they should be able to live next to the animals and benefit from them. Culling is a necessity sometimes but regulating is better before the problem gets out of hand.  

When it comes to elephants they are a little special.

Shoot an impala out of the heard and 10 minutes later the herd has more or less forgotten about their dead “mate” If it is the dominant male some disturbance will occur but settle down quickly when nr 2 climes to position. Do the same with a big tusker not to worrying as long as there are enough big ones left.

Shooting some of the big tuskers do not affect the population. BUT shoot most of them will affect the population and mostly the social life of the elephants will be greatly affected. Shot half a heard and the other half gets seriously upset and it can create rouge elephants that wreak havoc both with tourist cars, other animals, people and of course elephant social life. Shoot the leading female and you will have a small disaster both for the elephants and everyone that get in contact with them. Culling you need to shoot the whole herd this is not hunting this is slaughtering and should be avoided by not letting the situation get out of hand.


 

.


  • Bugs, ZaminOz, Paolo and 2 others like this

#46 Wildlife Detective

Wildlife Detective

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johannesburg
  • Category 1:Resident in Africa/Former resident
  • Category 2:---

Posted 23 March 2016 - 01:07 PM

In a twist of irony a Zimbabwean game reserve has warned that it may have to cull 200 lions because of what it calls “the Cecil effect.”

 

Under normal circumstances, the rights to shoot those lions would have been sold to big game hunters.

 

Off course that would have brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local economy.

 

LIke you all know - that in turns provides livelihoods to people helps the conservation budget.

 

http://www.telegraph...sk-of-cull.html

 

To a Westerner, it might seem a huge tragedy when a lion gets shot by some fat German trophy hunter.

 

I still battle with the irony in life that to a starving African villager, that lion hunter is a lifeline.

 

So that lion has really no value to him. It only gets a value when a professional game hunter comes along and tells you that that the animal is worth $10,000 to your community.

 

Could the threat to cull 200 lions be real?



#47 Tomas

Tomas

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Local time: 04:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iringa Tanzania
  • Category 1:Tour Operator
  • Category 2:Resident in Africa/Former resident

Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:35 PM

In a twist of irony a Zimbabwean game reserve has warned that it may have to cull 200 lions because of what it calls “the Cecil effect.”

 

Under normal circumstances, the rights to shoot those lions would have been sold to big game hunters.

 

Off course that would have brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local economy.

 

LIke you all know - that in turns provides livelihoods to people helps the conservation budget.

 

http://www.telegraph...sk-of-cull.html

 

To a Westerner, it might seem a huge tragedy when a lion gets shot by some fat German trophy hunter.

 

I still battle with the irony in life that to a starving African villager, that lion hunter is a lifeline.

 

So that lion has really no value to him. It only gets a value when a professional game hunter comes along and tells you that that the animal is worth $10,000 to your community.

 

Could the threat to cull 200 lions be real?

I agree with what you say but like you I feel a little skeptical about culling 200 lions after the cecil effect. The reproduction rate of lion is not really that fast but maybe they need to cull lions because they have been on the rise for a long time.
Here in Tanzania where wildlife is not fenced and bigger parks or reserves we dont have that problem. Allso in Tanzania only lion males 7 y or older is allowed too shoot. If you shoot a lion out of a pride it makes a big diffrent because the next lion male tacking over will kill the cubs so the hunter shoots one but in reality kills a lot more.


 



#48 Game Warden

Game Warden

    Administrator

  • Root Admin
  • 16,407 posts
  • Local time: 02:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sat by the PC
  • Category 1:Tourist (regular visitor)
  • Category 2:---

Posted 23 March 2016 - 03:42 PM

What are the options other than managing those lions, i.e., by culling? What are fenced reserves doing with their populations once they realise a full carrying capacity, or go over? Are they being reintroduced into other areas? I recall talking about such issues when touring KZN with @Bugs who can hopefully comment more. 


"Return to old watering holes for more than water; friends and dreams are there to meet you." - African proverb.

 

How to create your gallery album and upload images.

 

How to post images in the text.

Want to tag another member in a post? Use @ before their display name, eg @game warden


#49 Bugs

Bugs

    Order of the Pith

  • Members
  • 3,478 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Africa
  • Category 1:Resident in Africa/Former resident
  • Category 2:---

Posted 23 March 2016 - 05:00 PM

 

 

I agree with what you say but like you I feel a little skeptical about culling 200 lions after the cecil effect. The reproduction rate of lion is not really that fast but maybe they need to cull lions because they have been on the rise for a long time.

 

Actually @Tomas, lion numbers can and do increase very quickly under the right conditions. On the subject of the Bubye lions- they have a pretty accurate estimate of their lion numbers, and have been researching them for a number of years.. The Bubye debate got quite informative on Facebook click here..


  • wilddog and Tom Kellie like this

There's none so blind as those who will not see.


#50 Tomas

Tomas

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Local time: 04:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iringa Tanzania
  • Category 1:Tour Operator
  • Category 2:Resident in Africa/Former resident

Posted 23 March 2016 - 06:10 PM

@Bugs

I am not saying that they don’t need to cull lions. I am sure that a lion population can get to big especially in a fenced area or in an area that they have nowhere to go, no new suitable hunting grounds.

I don’t think that the “Cecil” effect can be the sole reason why the lion numbers have risen so fast that 200 needs to be culled and after reading the discussion on FB I saw this


“No one at the Bubye Valley Conservancy has ever said that lions have to be culled because of the "Cecil Effect".
 

I know that lion can increase quite quickly especially in environments that are not so natural it is also much more complex than that. But 200 lions in one year out of a population of just over 300 and they also grow to full-size individuals in that year! It was that that hit me as a little unbelievable in this article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/12166651/Cecil-effect-leaves-parks-lion-at-risk-of-cull.html notthat lions can increase their numbers fairly quick if the right situations occur.  So i dont think a "Cecil effect" is the reason for the increase of lions.

 

Thanks for the link


  • ZaminOz and Towlersonsafari like this

#51 bettel

bettel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 571 posts
  • Local time: 09:09 PM
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ottawa, Canada
  • Category 1:Tourist (regular visitor)
  • Category 2:---

Posted 23 March 2016 - 06:11 PM

What are the options other than managing those lions, i.e., by culling? What are fenced reserves doing with their populations once they realise a full carrying capacity, or go over? Are they being reintroduced into other areas? I recall talking about such issues when touring KZN with @Bugs who can hopefully comment more. 

In Phinda they try a few things e.g. to use contraceptives, to make a surgery to remove one ovary, to change dominant males. But, I bet, culling is the cheapest one.


Edited by bettel, 23 March 2016 - 06:12 PM.


#52 Tomas

Tomas

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Local time: 04:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iringa Tanzania
  • Category 1:Tour Operator
  • Category 2:Resident in Africa/Former resident

Posted 23 March 2016 - 06:28 PM

I do not agree to sterilise and use contraceptives 

I think that the link @Bugs gave us is a really good FB discussion, one of the best I have read. Read it! Here it is again https://www.facebook...059514610788468



#53 Wildlife Detective

Wildlife Detective

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johannesburg
  • Category 1:Resident in Africa/Former resident
  • Category 2:---

Posted 25 March 2016 - 07:44 AM

My gut said that there is something wrong with the numbers in that article.

 

Thomas thanks for that reference to a true master of the subject matter when it comes to lions - Derek Joubert. Trust the expert to point out the flaws in its logic and advising not to take it too seriously.

 

The bigger debates still continue forever.

 

Question: Hunting and culling - Good or bad?

 

Answer: It depends


  • Towlersonsafari and Tomas like this

#54 Bugs

Bugs

    Order of the Pith

  • Members
  • 3,478 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Africa
  • Category 1:Resident in Africa/Former resident
  • Category 2:---

Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:27 PM

@Wildlife Detective Wildcru study the lions in Bubye conservancy. If you think the numbers are dodgy then you may want to question Wildcru. Derek Joubert did not study the lions in Bubye. He may be a great film maker and a v very successful high end lodge owner and probably regards himself as a celebrity, but I wouldn't take his opinions on wildlife management too seriously. 

 

In favourable conditions lions numbers can double in two years. Over the last three weeks I have been staying with a person who studied the lions in Central Kalahari. Sadly what the public hears and believes is far removed from the facts on the ground. 


Edited by Bugs, 25 March 2016 - 12:45 PM.

There's none so blind as those who will not see.


#55 Towlersonsafari

Towlersonsafari

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 606 posts
  • Local time: 02:09 AM
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Northamptonshire
  • Category 1:Tourist (regular visitor)
  • Category 2:---

Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:53 PM

Well reading the Bubye conservancy website they quote having 280 lions in 2009 and now 500 lions so roughly a 36 a year increase if my maths is correct.The same website says and I quote "And despite sensation RESPONSIBLE (my emphasis) trophy hunting cannot significantly affect lion population density" so they themselves do not believe the Cecil effect. The website does paint an impressive picture as a well managed conservancy. They point out that lions kill lions and indeed a finite area can only support a finite number of predators.

#56 egilio

egilio

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,533 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Category 1:Conservationist/Naturalist
  • Category 2:Ecologist

Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:59 AM

@Tomas Indeed that was a good discussion on fb. I hope they make some sort of exception for Bubye (and Save). They still get quotas imposed on them, but they introduced the lions, so I would argue they should have more to say about it. But even if they reduce the number of males, there will still be a lot of females in breeding ages around, and they can't legally be hunted in Zimbabwe anymore, so also not in Bubye. And if males don't have much competition they will happily 'service' the females in multiple prides. In male depleted lion populations it has often been suggested that the cub sex ration gets skewed in favor of males, however this has never really been found in the wild, only suggested.

But back to Bubye, you would have to keep the number of males pretty low for several years, before the nr of reproducing females declines (after they get 10-12 years old, and few female cubs make it to adulthood). 


  • Tomas likes this

#57 Tomas

Tomas

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 135 posts
  • Local time: 04:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iringa Tanzania
  • Category 1:Tour Operator
  • Category 2:Resident in Africa/Former resident

Posted 27 March 2016 - 05:20 AM

@egilio As a hunter I have seen, read and studied how reducing the numbers of breeding males in a population affects the population. The biggest problem is not that it reduces the population it disrupts it in different way for some species like the elephant it’s a social disruption others it results in other its effects the time of conception and births. So to hunt only males to make a population decrease is as you say problematic at least. Even to keep a population at the same level by only hunting males does not really work if you hunting the older or younger ones the breeding males in their pride years should not be hunted this applies to a lot of different species but are a rule that of course has acceptations.


  • Towlersonsafari likes this

#58 egilio

egilio

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,533 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Category 1:Conservationist/Naturalist
  • Category 2:Ecologist

Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:04 AM

I agree with that, it affects social aspects of those animals too, and elephants and lions have complex social lives. It also affects the genes. Elephant bulls big genes for 100+ pound tusks get taken early in life because their tusks are already too appealing to hunters to not be taken. Same for buffalo, in the 80s hunters in the Zambezi Valley on average shot buffalo with way wider horns than they do now. There are still plenty of buffalo and elephant...

Here are two interesting papers from the Zambian Carnivore Programme about how male loss affects lion populations and the sources of the male loss.

1, 2, and more of their publications can be found here. I think the full articles are behind a pay wall, but let me know if you're interested in them, or have more questions about them.


  • Geoff and Towlersonsafari like this

#59 Geoff

Geoff

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,681 posts
  • Local time: 12:09 PM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Victoria, Australia
  • Category 1:Tourist (regular visitor)
  • Category 2:---

Posted 27 March 2016 - 07:08 AM

Thanks @egilio looks worth reading. I'd be interested in the full articles.


Edited by Geoff, 27 March 2016 - 07:13 AM.

Geoff.

#60 Bugs

Bugs

    Order of the Pith

  • Members
  • 3,478 posts
  • Local time: 03:09 AM
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Africa
  • Category 1:Resident in Africa/Former resident
  • Category 2:---

Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:22 PM

The fate of the lion: Bubye valley conservancy 


There's none so blind as those who will not see.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: yellowstone, bison, elephant, hwange, badgers, brumby, brumbies, culling


© 2006 - 2016 www.safaritalk.net - Talking Safaris and African Wildlife Conservation since 2006. Passionate about Africa.

Welcome guest to Safaritalk.
Please Register or Login to use the full facilities.