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Rhino John Hume trade horn

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#41 Albina Hume

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 01:18 PM

Answer to Sangeeta, Panthera Pardus and all who are against legalized trade in rhino horn where rhino stays alive. I am anti-illegal trade activist, where rhinos killed for their horns. That is why I support legalized trade in rhino horn, where rhino stays alive because I care for rhino survival. I am pro-rhino: I care more for rhino life than rhino horn BECAUSE horn is renewable product and it grows back!

 

I see no point in going on to more discussions with those who clearly support conditions for illegal trade by opposing legal approach to let supply horn on the market while rhino stays alive, which right now gets supplied only by poaching rhinos. Some of you even involved with those who collect donations on rhino blood, which means you support and sponsor those NGO's who collect donations on 'save rhino' causes AND advocate to keep in place conditions for illegal trade by opposing legalized trade.

It is very simple, if people are against legalized trade they just support to keep in place conditions for illegal trade, where more rhinos get killed every day. There are few categories of people for such attitude- either they benefit from rhino crisis like poachers and those who give orders to poachers or those who collect donations on rhino crisis and fight against legal trade and rhino breeders, because legalized trade would mean suicide for their business; or people who are misinformed by those who collect donations and fight against rhino breeders and legalized trade; or people who simply uneducated on a subject, yet fight against legalized trade on the emotional side. They rather see rhinos extinct than to be saved; those one are unhappy people.

 

In my opinion if you fight legal approach to rhino crisis you are anti- rhino person and pro-illegal trade activist, because no matter how many rhinos poached for the past 5 years, you still support to continue with banning legal trade in rhino horn, which worked very well in South Africa for over 40 years!

 

There is a trade that already exists right now- it is called illegal trade. When you say you are against legal trade, where rhino would stay alive, I can only understand it that you are against conditions where rhino would stay alive!

 

Rhino poaching crisis was designed in South Africa after our government was influenced by animal-rights organizations, which resulted in the change of law on 13 Feb. 2009. Legal trade in rhino horn was banned from privately owned rhinos. Result - over 3200 rhinos poached, most of which are from national parks and tourist resorts. It is very clear how privately owned rhinos saved before rhinos in national parks- the national trade in their horn was enough to keep rhinos alive and let them breed well. But since privately owned rhinos are not allowed to supply horn legally to the market- TRADE gets supplied ILLEGALLY by poachers. So YES, those who influenced the change of law are responsible for creating poaching crisis. because they are the one who collect donations on wildlife crisises. They are responsible for creating conditions and monopoly for poachers and they are the one who fight against private ownership of wild animals in South Africa, especially rhinos.

 

To survive- rhinos need rhino breeders, yet rhino beggars and rhino poachers do everything in their power to fight us. All your donations just make things worse- look every year more and more rhinos poached. It is proved that donations have not made things better for rhinos- just opposite, more rhinos in South Africa poached than ever before!!! You are responsible with your donations to keep crisis in place! If there is a crisis- there is a donations, if no crisis- no donations.

 

During legal trade in rhino horn from privately owned rhinos until it was banned in 2009- South Africa had ZERO NGO's collecting money on wildlife crisis- because there was no crisis! With rhino breeders- no crisis- more rhinos, more rhinos- more rhino breeders, more rhino breeders-more rhinos and very little poaching- until the change of law in 2009.

 

I don't care what for rhino horn is used- it's people's choice! Rhinos also should have a choice- supply of their horns legally where they would stay alive. Right now with current law- rhinos have no choice and that is why time to change the law that kills our rhinos! Look at the numbers of poached rhinos- facts speak loader then your objections: more rhinos will be poached if we continue with the failed measures we've taken until we legalize trade in rhino horn. It is easy to ban legal trade but can we ban illegal trade? The answer is NO.

Answer one simple question before you support anti-legal approach: Does rhino benefit from banning legal trade in rhino horn?

 

Bye everyone.


Edited by Albina Hume, 09 September 2014 - 02:39 PM.

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#42 egilio

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 10:53 PM

The demand is so vast at the moment, that legalizing the trade will not decrease the price very much. The majority of rhinos in South Africa are still found in National Parks, thus their horn is not trade-able. 

Because of the high demand, and the low supply (legal or illegal) the price will remain high and thus the incentive to poach will remain high.


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#43 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 05:15 AM

I just want to make one more point - Thanks for all the work Panthera Pardus. One must remember that the media has a way of sensationalising everything and can often regurgitate misleading propaganda. 

 

However - on the subject of the pseudo hunts. One must remember that they would never have happened if trade was legalised. 

 

At the moment much of what is happening is because the trade is illegal, but hunting permits and hunts are tightly controlled. The information on the number of rhino hunted and trophies taken is for public knowledge, and each rhino hunt is overseen by a a government official. 

 

The thing is that, had trade been legal, then many of those hunts wouldn't even have taken place. Even old Rhino bulls will have a value alive. 


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#44 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 05:28 AM

The demand is so vast at the moment, that legalizing the trade will not decrease the price very much. The majority of rhinos in South Africa are still found in National Parks, thus their horn is not trade-able. 

Because of the high demand, and the low supply (legal or illegal) the price will remain high and thus the incentive to poach will remain high.

 

There is no intention to "flood" the market - its a sustained controlled supply, and its well within South Africas ability to meet the demand. 


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#45 Soukous

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 06:52 AM

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton - IF a legal trade in rhino horn is allowed, how will it be possible to differentiate between legal and illegally obtained rhino horn?

 

If, as everyone says rhino horn is nothing more than keratin, and is used in powder form, how can you prove its legal provenance?

With the value being so high, and forgers being able to reproduce just about anything, forging a certificate would be no obstacle.

And, there will still be a market - a growing market - of people who will buy from wherever they can get it.


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#46 Albina Hume

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 08:49 AM

Right now,under current law, demand for rhino horn is supplied by ONLY poaching rhinos. Illegal trade in rhino horn costs rhino a life. Such trade has monopoly, which no one can stop. We won't lose more with legal trade,where rhino would stay alive. We had legal trade in rhino horn since 70's and the results are excellent until it has been banned in 2009. I still wonder why legal trade in rhino horn has been banned in South Africa???

With 5000 rhinos in private ownership it is possible to give a huge competition to poachers and let demand been supplied by horn where rhino stays alive. After all, there is a demand for rhino horn, not rhino life. International legal trade in rhino horn is the only tool which still  hasn't been used in curbing rhino poaching crisis.

Time to make revolutionary step and give a rhino cup of life.



#47 Panthera Pardus

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 09:54 AM



I just want to make one more point - Thanks for all the work Panthera Pardus. One must remember that the media has a way of sensationalising everything and can often regurgitate misleading propaganda. 

 

Sure the media can do this. I try to get my information from as many sources as I can and then form an opinion. Our opinions are based on the information at hand and our experiences and I have first hand experience as a Honorary Ranger and a Moderator on the SANParks Forum. However, at the end of the day, it is just an opinion and it is not cast in stone.

 

However - on the subject of the pseudo hunts. One must remember that they would never have happened if trade was legalised. 

 

At the moment much of what is happening is because the trade is illegal, but hunting permits and hunts are tightly controlled. The information on the number of rhino hunted and trophies taken is for public knowledge, and each rhino hunt is overseen by a a government official. 

 

No they not @dikdik. Have you read the book by Julian Rademeyer? (se pages 99-105 of that book).He talks about the officials who are present at the hunt being on the take, about forged permits, about reuse of a permit, etc.

 

The thing is that, had trade been legal, then many of those hunts wouldn't even have taken place. Even old Rhino bulls will have a value alive. 

 

You mentioned the other day that we were not allowed to smoke in school but we did in the toilets - yep, good old days. Trade in cigarettes is legal yet we have an illegal trade. Forget all the ethical and moral arguments. Do you really believe that we can control trade? We have had two Police Commissioners separated from their jobs for wrong doing, We have had the Interpol Offices in Pretoria broken into 5 times in 3 weeks - Here. We have a Pres that has spent millions of taxpayers money on his personl home and so far with impunity. We refuse a visa to the Dalai Lama, this is the third time it is happening. We have airplanes of private individuals landing at a military air base and nothing happens. We have cops that hire out their uniforms and cars so that we get stopped at road blocks to be hijacked. Need i go on?

 

We have lost our moral compass @dikdik and we will not be able to control trade. Not right now.

 

 

If you want a debate on whether to legalize or not why are you all hush about the panel of experts, perhaps beacuse they are all pro trade - here

 

Debunking the pro trade propanganda - Here

 

Legalising the trade in rhino horn and a wilderness of greed - here

 

To answer another question you asked - No it is not a sin to make money


Edited by Panthera Pardus, 10 September 2014 - 10:02 AM.


#48 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:32 PM

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton - IF a legal trade in rhino horn is allowed, how will it be possible to differentiate between legal and illegally obtained rhino horn?

 

If, as everyone says rhino horn is nothing more than keratin, and is used in powder form, how can you prove its legal provenance?

With the value being so high, and forgers being able to reproduce just about anything, forging a certificate would be no obstacle.

And, there will still be a market - a growing market - of people who will buy from wherever they can get it.

 

It is a good question. 

 

It is clear that making the trade illegal has not stopped people. There will always be a criminal element that will try and get involved. No-one is ignorant enough to assume that legal trade will stop poaching outright. What is will do is provide a legal alternative through which the demand cam be met. By doing so the funds will allow for better protection of the rhino, and SAN Parks will also benefit by being able to sell stockpiles and use the funds for anti-poaching. 

 

Also once the buyers have been established there is a way to follow the products.


Edited by dikdik, 10 September 2014 - 12:33 PM.

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#49 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:52 PM

@Panthera Pardus sadly you keep quoting the same culprits. The heavily biased Animal Rights people who have been sensationalising  the issue for ever. In fact they are so set in their way that even if it could be proved 100% that rhinos could be saved by legal trade their egos and fundamental ideology. They have been fear mongering and ranting along with harvesting donor funds for a number of years, while the panel of experts were looking into genuine ways to save the rhino. 

 

BTW, the story about the rhinos sent to "hunting" farms is another example of how these people can get in the way of a good idea. Its sensational writing and designed to sell newspapers. what about the truth...

 

The animals were sold to a number of farmers whose farms were audited and cleared before the process. The idea was to create a safe haven for these rhino to save them from the onslaught they face in Kruger. The people they selected showed that they offered the highest standard of protection, but the fact that this plan has been exposed has jeopardised the safety of these rhinos, as the locations are no longer secret. Sadder still, some of those farmers will have to move their rhino as their locations are no longer secret. So perhaps the irresponsible reporting has put a bigger spanner in the works that we think. Remember that there are two sides to the story - the emotional one sells newspapers, and often further from the truth. 


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#50 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:56 PM

And about the corruption.. Lets say that we need to build a school or a hospital.... The need to build this is clear cut and definite. Now we know that there may be some corruption in the tender and some corrupt builder. Does that mean that we should can the idea of building a school or hospital? 


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#51 Panthera Pardus

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 01:06 PM

@dikdik - I have quoted many sources but we can agree to disagree ;)



#52 Dam2810

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 01:23 PM

@dikdik, even if we disagree, i respect your opinion and always appreciate your arguments

 

@Miss Hume, given your current position and the role your husband is playing for the pro trade side, I expected you to come with some decent arguments to justify the trade in rhino horns. But you seem to be obsessed with NGOs and care more about attacking those NGOs (which again I am not part of) than justifying your conservation goal. I can understand your frustration, some of those organisations are benefiting from the current crisis and are not helping the rhinos on the ground but saying that they created the current poaching crisis is going too far.  You seem to believe that anyone against the pro trade is a member of a NGO or even worse that people opposing the trade are responsible of the current poaching crisis. Today I am against the trade of rhino horns simply because I believe it would make things worse for wild rhinos (not talking about the domestic ones) and as said before, i dont  support any NGO or make any donation. Maybe one day some people will convince me that trading rhino horn is the way to go to save this iconic species (someone like dikdik alwyas gives me some food for thought) but today the more I read your arguments/comments Ms Hume, the less credible you are to me and the less I become likely to change my mind on the pro/against trade debate especially since I believe you represent your huband, the biggest private owner of rhinos in SA. If you want to convince the public opinion, you should raise yourself above those few NGOs attacking your actions and show us with decent arguments/scientific surveys/studies that trade in rhino horns will indeed save wild rhinos.

  

@Panthera Pardus, it s great to have on this fórum someone who knows so well this topic


Edited by Dam2810, 10 September 2014 - 01:55 PM.

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“Africa’s human and natural resources have been pillaged and plundered for generations by people from far off lands. From slavery to archaeological artifacts, minerals, fauna and flora, the continent and its people have for so long been victims of other continents’ selfish interests, and today it is continuing…our elephant ivory and rhino horn are going to countries where they are used for God knows what! Only to satisfy ridiculous outdated beliefs whilst we remain with carcasses, as proof we once owned these magnificent animals.” President Khama


#53 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 01:57 PM

@dikdik - I have quoted many sources but we can agree to disagree ;)

 

No problem - I have no problem with people having an opinion that differs from mine at all. I can see that you have done your homework and have contacts. I have also done a substantial amount of homework, and met with a number of people to discuss this issue. I have also made a point of getting involved, and I must say that when it comes to whether or not to legalise the trade, I do have faith that the right people have been consulted and South Africa will make the right decision. 

 

Another book I suggest you read apart from Ian Players biography is a book by Clive walker called Rhino Keepers. In the mean time take a look at the attachments.

 

Attached File  Reply to Witney..pdf   41.73KB   73 downloads

Attached File  Reply to McCullum.pdf   46.81KB   79 downloads

Attached File  times.pdf   621.72KB   205 downloads


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#54 Panthera Pardus

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 02:12 PM

@dikdik, at the end of the day we want the same thing. Rhinos saved from extinction. I have read the book but will look at the other docs.


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#55 Soukous

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 02:14 PM

 

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton - IF a legal trade in rhino horn is allowed, how will it be possible to differentiate between legal and illegally obtained rhino horn?

 

If, as everyone says rhino horn is nothing more than keratin, and is used in powder form, how can you prove its legal provenance?

With the value being so high, and forgers being able to reproduce just about anything, forging a certificate would be no obstacle.

And, there will still be a market - a growing market - of people who will buy from wherever they can get it.

 

It is a good question. 

 

It is clear that making the trade illegal has not stopped people. There will always be a criminal element that will try and get involved. No-one is ignorant enough to assume that legal trade will stop poaching outright. What is will do is provide a legal alternative through which the demand cam be met. By doing so the funds will allow for better protection of the rhino, and SAN Parks will also benefit by being able to sell stockpiles and use the funds for anti-poaching. 

 

Also once the buyers have been established there is a way to follow the products.

 

 

Isn't that a bit like saying we should legalise heroin or handguns because those who want it/them can already buy from illegal sources already?

 

My concern is not to find ways to meet the demand for rhino horn but to try and find a way to end the poaching.

Unless a legal trade in rhino horn can actually save rhinos, what is it achieving apart from creating an environment where it is lucrative to raise more rhinos in captivity?

 

Or are we looking to a future where the days of the rhino as a free wild animal are ended and rhinos have become another farm animal, to be raised for harvesting?

 

Like you @dikdik I would like to believe that South Africa has gathered all the relevant information and will come to an informed and reasoned judgement. Whichever way the decision goes there will be those that are unhappy.


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#56 Bugs

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 03:22 PM

You will never end poaching. You can control it. Controlling it costs money, and donor funds aren't sustainable, and protection costs are climbing. There are masses of NGO's pulling in donations - but that money is falling way short. Donors will soon get bored and funds will dry up further. 

 

As Pelham Jones says - the only way we will save rhinos is if they are worth more alive than they are dead. 


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#57 egilio

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 04:41 PM

 

The demand is so vast at the moment, that legalizing the trade will not decrease the price very much. The majority of rhinos in South Africa are still found in National Parks, thus their horn is not trade-able. 

Because of the high demand, and the low supply (legal or illegal) the price will remain high and thus the incentive to poach will remain high.

 

There is no intention to "flood" the market - its a sustained controlled supply, and its well within South Africas ability to meet the demand. 

 

 

If the demand would be met, the price wouldn't be sky-rocket high. Legalizing the trade would confuse the market, making it easier for the traders in illegal horn to profit from their 'business' and get away unpunished (even more so than now).

The ivory poaching took off again, after legal trade options were allowed, rhino horn trade profited from the same trade channels and the rhino poaching took off again too.


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#58 Panthera Pardus

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 06:55 PM

The way I see it SANParks/Natal parks sold Rhinos to Private Owners. SANParks have sold 1500 rhinos between 2000 and 2013 and note that the spike in poaching only started in 2008 - see article below from the ZA Sunday Times of 31 August 2014

 

10635986_793133077406161_692901089832045

 

 

 

 

 Rhinos were doing very well, thank you very much, and these buyers bought rhinos as a business venture. Some private owners sold rhinos for hunts and pseudo hunts, some had the horns cut for stockpiles. They saw rhinos as a pile of money. Well business conditions changed - this argument is made here

 

Anti Traders are accused of doing so for financial reasons as they profit from poaching and living on blood money. I read somewhere, can't remember now exactly where it was, but this is like saying cops like criminals because without criminals there would be no need for cops.

 

I am ineterested in saving our rhinos in the wild and controlling the poaching of rhinos in our National and Provincial Parks. The rhino in the room, so to speak, is the stockpile sitting with SANParks. Let me show why I think so:

 

I believe the way forward is ecotourism with community involvement. I believe the Peace Parks is a great concept and the Greater Limpopo Transfrontier Park can be one of the prime wilderness areas in the world. It was the vision of Madiba, one of the three founding patrons of the Peace Parks - @Sharifa (my better half for those who do not know and also an ex Honorary Ranger) wrote this to the SANParks Board on 18 March 2014. No reply to date let alone an acknowledgement of receipt.

 

Now the Peace Parks Foundation (PPF) do a lot of Good Work. Just yesterday they posted on their site an Update to the Rhino protection program You will see that one of their strategies is devaluation of rhino horn.

 

 

The three main devaluation techniques being investigated and tested include:

  • The use of tracking technology through the placement of tracking devices on rhino. Ezemvelo has made significant progress with investigations into the use of tracking technology and has identified various rhino reserves that may benefit from the use of tracking technology to manage the welfare and security of vulnerable rhino populations. Due to the sensitive nature of the project no further details can be divulged;
  • The option of stimulating the controlled irradiation of rhino horns and thus create a detectable “radioactive” signature tag on rhino horn; and
  • The chemical alteration of rhino horn, which investigates means to alter the internal colour, taste or smell of rhino horn through the use of approved chemical substances that will inhibit consumption

 

Now the PPF got huge donations from Holland and Sweden to work on these strategies. See this Article  from "The Star" newspaper of 25 August 2014 and you be the judge. I quote from the article

 

 

An independent review of the paper by chemist and forensic scientist Dr Hein Strauss concluded that he would have expected some scientific evidence to corroborate a visual inspection.

“This one-sided critique of horn infusion appears to be driven by those with a protrade agenda… We have been told directly by SANParks that ‘poisoning’ horns could tarnish the reputation of South African rhino horn in the mind of end consumers,” their critique said.

RRP said the Kruger National Park indicated last year that it was opposed to the concept of horn devaluation.

 

On the 03 June 2013, Ike Phaahla, Media Specialist SANParks had this to say about devaluation by infusion from here

 

 

South Africa National Parks has backed the initiative but spokesman Ike Phaahla admitted that it would be 'virtually impossible' to apply the process to all the rhinos in national parks because of lack of resources.

 

 

This is what Sharifa asked him on 19 March 2014. His answer is on the same page - you be the judge.

 

 


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#59 Panthera Pardus

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 05:05 AM



And about the corruption.. Lets say that we need to build a school or a hospital.... The need to build this is clear cut and definite. Now we know that there may be some corruption in the tender and some corrupt builder. Does that mean that we should can the idea of building a school or hospital? 

 

We wasted a total of ZAR33 Billion lat year. How much the year before that, and the year before that? Here

 

How many schools could we have built, or hospitals, or delivered on services, or created jobs. Is it any wonder we have service delivery protests every other day?



#60 Sangeeta

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 05:59 AM

@Panthera Pardus - thank you for all the facts you have brought to this discussion. It is not fun to compile these grim facts and graphic images, so I just wanted to take a moment to let you know that your research is much appreciated. As is @dikdik and his research, though we disagree on this issue :)

I thought I had heard the last of 'if you're not with us, you're against us' argument during the Iraq war. But it seems not. It is also unfortunate that we have to argue absurd conspiracy theories on this thread.

Frankly, the more I read about all this, the more I smell money and business. Perhaps there are passionate wildlife lovers who genuinely believe this is the way forward, but for the most part, I smell greed and exploitation.

I still can't understand why extinction is considered to be such a bad thing when the alternative for rhino is either to be killed by all sorts of horrible weapons (either by hunters or poachers) or forced to live on farms, producing an endless succession of calves and getting de-horned to supply a fraudulent theory, and eventually ending up on the hunting block anyway, when they become 'non productive' so to say.
  • twaffle, Kavita, SafariChick and 1 other like this

Zindagi na milegi dobara... Chalo Africa
You only live once...Go To Africa

www.chaloafrica.com






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Rhino, John Hume, trade, horn


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