Game Warden

Visiting John Hume's Rhino Breeding Operation, South Africa.

111 posts in this topic

Would be nice to know your real full name, Sangeeta, for the record of my next book- you might become very famous :) . I am not hiding my name as you see.

 

Sangeeta is a long standing and valuable contributor to this community. I have not met her, yet, but we have had a cuppa or two of masala chai together on this board.

 

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@@Panthera Pardus - thank you for those kind words. I have enjoyed our virtual masala chai sessions too and perhaps we'll have a real one soon :)

 

As Kit has very wisely reminded me, it is silly to argue amongst ourselves because ultimately @@inyathi and I are on the same side of this horn trade debate, albeit for very different reasons. So I'm sorry if I sounded snippy in my post, @@inyathi, but I will be honest and tell you that it was in reaction to what sounded to me like a very dismissive reference to 'animal rights campaigners' - like it's the silliest thing to be. My questions still stand, but asked in a more collegial tone.

 

@@Kitsafari - thanks for those words of wisdom. You are right.

Edited by Sangeeta
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Would be nice to know your real full name, Sangeeta, for the record of my next book- you might become very famous :) . I am not hiding my name as you see.

 

Sangeeta is a long standing and valuable contributor to this community. I have not met her, yet, but we have had a cuppa or two of masala chai together on this board.

 

 

Absolutely agree with Panthera Pardus and although I have never met Sangeeta I have communicated with her over a long time and I have always found her to be reasonable and intelligent in her thoughts on these difficult issues. There is a sub text here that I don't like at all.

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I must say that the points raised in this thread are rather typical of what I see and have debated on time and again. They often get heated.

 

I often try and put myself in other peoples shoes. In this case we have John Hume who has dropped his entire life savings into rhino and there are few people on earth who can teach him anything about rhino. In fact to get a measure of how big the game industry is in SA, you can walk into your local farmers co-op and ask for a milk formula for baby sable. The scientific advantage of SAN Parks and information from private farmers puts South Africa leaps and bounds ahead of any other country in terms of research. Th success of this system speaks for itself.

 

Then you look at a forum like this where we have a good number of passionate tourists. Who love Africa and its wildlife to the point that they have made it their mission to learn more about conservation and the wellbeing of Africas animals.

 

I think it is necessary that we show each other respect for the one common interest that we share, and that is a passion for wildlife and a mission to have it protected.

 

What you also have to understand (in the context of the rhino issue) is that proponents in favour of trade blame the trade ban for the bloodshed right now. So if you are standing in that corner, you will see the other people standing in the way of a genuine possibility to save the rhino. Unfortunately opinion is divided.

 

So on the other hand - (and in the other corner) you see many people who are against trade for whatever reasons they have. They see the people who are pro-trade as people who will let rhinos go into extinction as a result of greed.

 

My dear friends. Please do yourself a favour. Please step away from the emotion. Please open your minds to the others opinions, and read information from both sides of the arguments. Also have faith in South Africa. Many think we are dysfunctional, but we do function and we do operate. We are live in a free market system, and despite accusations of government corruptness, the private sector simply gets on with it. Another point that people are not giving enough credit is that we have free press here, so corruption is exposed on a daily basis, unlike other African countries where the press is tightly under control, and corruption is seldom leaked. South Africa boasts some of the finest academics and patrons of wildlife in history, and through them there is a watchdog on many corruption concerns. Lets be pragmatic and also lets be realistic and optimistic at the same time. Get your head out of all the sensational bad news press and look for the real story.

 

All the best.

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Being slightly mischievous, lion numbers are falling in the wild.Lion breeders seem to do very well getting them to breed in captivity.There is a lot of money in hunting lions. Hurrah another species saved!

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Dear Kitsafari, I don't know you also but I want to reassure you, I had no intention to threat anyone- I simply prefer to have conversations with people who don't mind to show their real names, just like I do. Also I am a writer, and I am interested in material that would become my second book. My first book is based on a true story, which right now is getting ready for publishing. I have witnessed some crimes and corruption and this taught me, always speak up for what is right or it might be too late. Nothing personal.

My second book will be about how wildlife crisis in Africa is designed, so I actually start collecting material. Please don't overreact.

I am for harmony between people and nature. Plus I am natural optimist - I believe it is possible to create such harmony if things are unbalanced.

Kind regards.

Edited by Albina Hume

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Being slightly mischievous, lion numbers are falling in the wild.Lion breeders seem to do very well getting them to breed in captivity.There is a lot of money in hunting lions. Hurrah another species saved!

 

This is another misinterpreted myth. Lion numbers in South Africa are not declining. Over 100 private (tourist) farms have free roaming lions, and new lion releases have occurred in many extra national parks. Addo, Mountian zebra, Karoo, Mkuze, Tembe, Marekele - this list goes on.. I was at Madikwe and they are sterilising lions. I was at Mkuze and they are sterilising lions. I have visited Tembe and they have been culling to keep numbers in control for years. In fact while at Madikwe, I managed to read a little about their predator projects and could see their lion numbers went from 17 introduced to 44 in three years. Every years since then they have had to remove lions. At one stage there were 120 but they have them down to 62 now as the high numbers were affecting other rare animals. Even at the current numbers they are still the recommended capacity of the park. So - in short in SA there are plenty of lions to go around... and I an only talking of wild ones. When you think that each of the 100 private farms who carry lions and the 20 odd national parks who have lions can only swop their surplus for so long before population controls have to take affect.

 

What is happening to the lion numbers in the rest of Africa is mostly about habitat loss and human conflict, and probably more a result of their own wildlife policy inadequacies. Above all - the lion issue is a separate issue for another topic. There is a massive difference between the concept of habitat needs between a lion and a Rhino. What is interesting is that rhino is loosing habitat - but for different reasons. Rhino habitat is reduced only because of serious security concerns. in other words there i surplus of suitable habitat to release rhino - but for the fact that security costs are prohibitive. Lion habitat is pretty much taken saturated.

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I did say in the wild not in South Africa. There is a great deal to admire with conservation in South Africa.The point I was trying to get across was a philosophical one.What does one mean by conserving a species? How far from the ideal of preserving an environment with a whole ecosystem do we fall and have to compromise? When do we give up saving rhino in the wild and settle for having them in farms and zoos? That is a debate that underpins legal trade in horn even hunting and can only be had with passion a love of wildlife and the environment, and although it is difficult sometimes a love of humanity.It cannot be an only logical financial one

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I did say in the wild not in South Africa.

I was only talking about wild lions in South Africa. I don't count zoo lions as lions.

 

Wild - as having to hunt their prey naturally.

Edited by Bugs
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When do we give up saving rhino in the wild and settle for having them in farms and zoos? That is a debate that underpins legal trade in horn even hunting and can only be had with passion a love of wildlife and the environment, and although it is difficult sometimes a love of humanity.It cannot be an only logical financial one

 

I just want to cover this point. Firstly a tame rhino can be released to the wild without much conditioning. Ol Pejeta did that - I think they introduced zoo rhino without issues. And it has been done a number of times in SA with less publicity.

 

Secondly, rhinos living in private farms are not in zoos. Rhinos roam free and although in some cases their feed is subsidised - they are still as wild as they need to be.

 

In the end - and I hope it never gets to this - the final living rhinos will be moved to secure places. It was done in Zimbabwe - the last rhino in Chete were moved to an undisclosed location. I think they have even moved the rhino from Hwange as well.

 

Swaziland got rhino from South Africa, and they are also kept in a separate area and under constant security. I was at Hlane park a few months ago. its divided into three sections. one for lions and elephant, one for rhino elephant, and one for general game.

 

Botswana is quite similar - Kharma Rhino sanctuary holds most of Botswana's rhino. Pretty much under heavy guard..

 

Its only a matter of time and Kenya will do the same and move their rhino to safe locations.

 

This is where we are going if we don't legalise the trade.

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"You all, who still oppose legalized trade, do forget one important fact- South Africa HAD national legal trade in rhino horn which was supplied from private owned rhinos until 13 Feb 2009! There wasn't rhino poaching crisis for wild rhinos until the change of law- historical fact no one can argue!!!"

 

I DON'T BELEIVE THERE IS A CAUSE AND EFFECT HERE - IS THE INCREASE IN POACHING RESULTANT FROM THE INCREASE IN DEMAND IN ASIA (DUE TO THE EMERGENT MIDDLE CLASS WITH DISPOSIBLE INCOME AND THE STATEMENT THAT RHINO HORN "CURED' A HIGH PROFILE PERSON'S CANCER AROUND THAT TIME)?

 

 

 

"Illegal trade took complete monopoly ,under current law, in suplying rhino horn to the market by taking rhino life together with the horn. The only supporters to such conditions are those who fight to keep ban in legal trade in place! And all those who benefit to such conditions are continue to poaching our rhinos and collecting donations on rhino blood, or some of those who rather support rhino extinction, like Sangeeta. Would be nice to know your real full name, Sangeeta, for the record of my next book- you might become very famous :) ."

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME - AGGRESSIVE, RUDE, CONDESENDING TRIPE BORDERING ON THREATENING WHICH WILL DISCOURAGE RATIONAL DISCUSSION OF THIS TOPIC.

 

 

 

"...there are still those who rather fight for saving rhino horn than rhino life, when they know very well- horn grows back! Wake up!

 

I AM AWAKE BUT READING THIS POST MAKES ME WANT TO GO BACK TO BED

KIND REGARDS Edited by PT123
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@@inyathi \I used to think that animal sanctuaries and breeding farms are unnatural places for wildlife animals. but watching documentaries where conservationists save species that are literally dying out, breeding them and releasing them back to the wild changed my mind somewhat. So saving rhinos - for exploitation or for conservation? for conservation of course, for the eventual goal of releasing them back into the wild, where they belong. But are we at that stage where we need breeding farms that will change them into cattle? I don't know. To me, breeding farms are almost a last resort, when all else has failed and you are left with triple-digit numbers, and you are desperate to save the species. Of course this is a simplistic statement, with so many permutations and factors that have not been considered.

 

But at this point, are we really at the last resort? I don't believe so. for sure, the happy-looking rhinos in Hume's farm are one factor in the equation. It seems to me that breeding farms are also not safe from poachers as well, as Hume's farm has been breached by poachers a couple of times. So who do you attack? the NGOs or the poachers who are literally at their doorstep? what about attacking all fronts at the same time?

 

On the demand side, ENV in Vietnam has stepped up its game, as you can see from the Vietnamese delegation now in SA seeing the rhino poaching first hand. Asian and American superstars are lending their weight to reduce rhino horn and ivory consumption. I can't believe how pessimistic some people can be for believing that people's preferences can never be changed. Look at the sharks' fins - the Chinese have been eating that for thousands of years, but demand has plummeted because a new generation is emerging and is more willing to listen to the campaigns.

 

and as you have said, there is still one front that has not been fully tackled and where conviction is clearly lacking and which can help turn the tide -

 

quoting you: I believe there is something else we could try it’s called proper law enforcement, in South Africa law enforcement is in my view inadequate and in Vietnam virtually nonexistent. Vietnam needs to actually take this issue seriously and if they won’t they need to be forced to do so by imposing sanctions. The US in particular needs to be persuaded to get tough with Vietnam over this since South Africa clearly won’t not while the government thinks there’s a vast sums of money to be made from the country’s substantial horn stockpile if the trade is legalised.

Edited by Kitsafari
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In the end - and I hope it never gets to this - the final living rhinos will be moved to secure places. It was done in Zimbabwe - the last rhino in Chete were moved to an undisclosed location. I think they have even moved the rhino from Hwange as well.

 

Swaziland got rhino from South Africa, and they are also kept in a separate area and under constant security. I was at Hlane park a few months ago. its divided into three sections. one for lions and elephant, one for rhino elephant, and one for general game.

 

Botswana is quite similar - Kharma Rhino sanctuary holds most of Botswana's rhino. Pretty much under heavy guard..

 

Its only a matter of time and Kenya will do the same and move their rhino to safe locations.

 

This is where we are going if we don't legalise the trade.

 

 

@@Bugs well this is where we will have to agree to disagree

 

The fundamental problem whether the trade is legal or illegal is the price of horn, I believe that if you do legalise the trade the same thing will happen certainly outside of South Africa.

 

Assuming the price of a single horn is still around $300,000 how far would the price need to drop to avoid the scenario that you’re talking about? How far will the price in horn drop if trade is legalised? As I’ve argued elsewhere how do you stop horn buyers in Vietnam (or China) from stockpiling the horn and trickling it on to the market to keep the price as high as possible much as is done with diamonds. Increasingly rhinos cannot survive without electric fences, armed guards and so on and legalisation won’t change this it won’t make the world a safer place for rhinos all it will do is provide a way to pay for the electric fences and the armed guards while ensuring the rhinos cannot survive without these defences.

 

@@Sangeeta I will try to answer some of you points, but first I will say that my last post was prompted as much by the report Under Siege: Rhinos in South Africa by Animal Rights Africa that @@Panthera Pardus linked to in an earlier post than anything you said, so please don't take anything I say too personally.

 

There are some 6,000 tigers living on tiger farms in China far more than the population of tigers in the wild do I consider this fact to be a good thing for the conservation of tigers? Absolutely not, the existence of these animals does nothing for the conservation of wild tigers and the conditions in which many of these animals are kept is horrendous. What matters is conserving tigers as wild animals in their natural habitat not least because as apex predators they are a vital component of many Asian ecosystems, returning captive bred tigers to the wild may be possible but is extremely difficult and undesirable because of the potential risk to people. Therefore is no benefit to endlessly breeding captive tigers or lions or for that matter any species that cannot be returned to the wild, however rhinos do not fall into this category.

 

If poaching continues at the current rate, the population of both black and white rhinos will start to go down as deaths begin to exceed births, so in my view anything that increases the numbers of these two species is a good thing. Unlike big cats captive bred rhinos can be put back in to the wild without too much difficulty and have been (in SA and in Tanz) though it’s not cheap. I don’t especially like the fact that people trophy hunt rhinos, hunting a white rhino at least one that is not entirely wild is (in my view) only marginally more challenging and dangerous than shooting a domestic cow and I think that the people that do should be restricted to using rifles of an appropriate calibre and should not be allowed to use bows. However if sending rhinos from Kruger (or wherever) to hunting ranches leads to an eventual increase in the over all population because the rhinos (barring the few that are hunted) are safer from poachers at these locations than in Kruger then that is a good thing. An increasing population of rhinos on farms or even in zoos is a good thing provided to use your words the wild is not so toxic that they can’t be put back into it and that is really what this debate is about, ensuring that the African bush and the grasslands and forests of Asia are not too toxic for rhinos to survive without Fort Knox style protection.

 

Once rhinos are extinct (leaving aside the emerging science of de-extinction) they are gone forever and the role that they play in their ecosystems is gone affecting other species. Research indicates that in forests where elephants have become extinct the regeneration of certain plant species drops by 95% because those species depend on elephants for seed dispersal. Research in forests in the Congo basin has shown that what is now referred to as defaunation the loss of animal species as a result of bushmeat poaching has a huge impact on the composition of plant species. The removal of any native species from an ecosystem is not a good thing. Ecosystems around tropical Asia and Africa may not collapse in the absence of rhinos but I believe they would be better for having rhinos in them.

 

Having said that extinction is an entirely natural process is one of the drivers of evolution and is therefore not always a bad thing, the issue I have is with human caused extinctions and the fact that we are exterminating wildlife around the world.

 

My issue with your animal rights viewpoint is not simply that I disagree it’s that when you express some of these views you need to recognise that you are only preaching to the choir and that the choir is very small, the majority of the population do not share these views. So while I respect your desire to always address issues of ethics and morality, in a world where the majority do not share your concerns concentrating on these issues will not win the argument against legalising the trade in rhino horn. Sometimes animal rights campaigners need to stop preaching to the choir and start preaching to the congregation as a whole and to people who aren’t even inside the church in order to win individual battles that can probably be won rather than trying to fight an entire war that can’t be. You suggest that rhino farming will be a terrible thing for rhinos but to most people who probably don’t share your negative views on livestock farming the photos at the start of this thread indicate otherwise. People will say we farm cows why not rhinos what’s the difference, in world where most people are entirely happy with the concept of farming all kinds of animals arguing the rhinos should not become livestock won’t get you very far. A white rhino on a farm will never become like say a Holstein cow in some indoor 10,000 head mega dairy as exist in the US because rhinos cannot be kept that way (at least I’m pretty sure they can’t be). So I and I think most people who are not supporters of animal rights will not see rhino farming as necessarily a bad thing or something that will cause suffering to rhinos.

 

Our views may differ but we are on the same side and we both want the same thing no trade in rhino horn at all, if you don’t want the future for rhinos that you envisage then we have to win the argument against legalisation. I believe that in order to win this argument we need to chose the best weapons and that means concentrating on the trade, on the market, on the economics of rhino horn, on the consumer end, to prove that legalisation will not work. Expressing concern for the welfare of rhinos however laudable will not stop the trade being legalised but proving that it won’t work should do and that is my point. I will freely admit at this point that I don’t know enough about the consumer end of the trade, to refute all of the pro trade arguments but I'm convinced this is the battlefield the war needs to be fought on and will be won on.

 

I do not expect you to be sanguine about the hunting of a few rhinos but the hunting of these animals does not threatened the survival of their species which is a t heart what this debate is about and just to make it clear I’m talking about genuine trophy hunting and not pseudo-hunting. Hunting white rhinos is really no different to hunting any other animal and the ethics of trophy hunting is a valid but entirely separate debate that contributes nothing to the campaign against legalising the horn trade. If you want to have a debate on the ethics of rhino trophy hunting fine buts lets have it after we’ve found a way to save all rhino species from extinction (for the foreseeable future).

 

When I say that Vietnamese millionaires are using rhino horn as a hangover cure and giving it to their guests at parties because it’s so expensive and not because it works better than anything else, I admit this is a little bit of an assumption. Based on the fact that there are plenty of inexpensive ways to avoid getting a hangover so why would you want to use rhino horn that costs 29,303,700 Dong an ounce (US$1,400)? Yes there is a belief that rhino horn is good at removing toxins but I’m inclined to think that the cost is more important though I may be wrong. Certainly the growing trend for wearing rhino horn jewellery is all about how many Dong or Yuan if you’re Chinese you have in your bank account. My point was that showing that rhino horn does not have medicinal properties may dissuade people from consuming it but makes no difference to anyone wearing it as jewellery. So how would you reduce demand for rhino horn jewellery if the trade is legalised what would dissuade people from buying it, because in the argument in favour of legal trade put forward by Pelham Jones he advocates putting more resources into demand reduction. Surely legalising the trade will only make demand reduction harder?

 

It is my view that the war against the illegal trade in rhino horn is winnable, a war against the sustainable use of other wildlife is not winnable and in any case to win it would not be desirable as it would be bad for conservation for reasons I’ve made clear in the various hunting debates.

Edited by inyathi
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http://africageographic.com/blog/south-african-politicians-weigh-in-on-rhino-poaching/

 

 

 

A full forensic audit of rhino populations and poaching figures was proposed which, in light of concerns that pro-traders are complicit in the carnage (in order to provoke a renewal of trade and to stockpile), was a good call. - See more at: http://africageographic.com/blog/south-african-politicians-weigh-in-on-rhino-poaching/#sthash.3jnkDiWI.dpuf

 

 

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-11-14-legal-sale-of-rhino-not-feasible%E2%80%8F

 

 

 

Karl Ammann, a journalist who has carried out research on the market countries, said he used to be pro trade but realised this would not work. The international community, especially groups like Interpol, doubted South Africa’s ability to control its game farmers – given how they had often circumvented trade bans to sell horn.

 

 

 

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-09/hunters-paying-150-000-to-kill-an-endangered-rhino-may-save-the-species.html

 

 

Hume had worked with Thormahlen and picked him to run the hunt.

“Professional hunters are not the most honest guys in the world,” Hume says. “Peter has been by far the best we’ve dealt with.”

 

 

While Hume has no pity for the poachers, he views the legally hunting Vietnamese as engaging in a legitimate business transaction.

 

A well documented report (from 2010), but i guess Ms Hume and the pro trade activists consider traffic as a NGO of armchair conservationists benefiting from rhino blood

 

www.traffic.org/species-reports/traffic_species_mammals66.pdf

 

 

 

Figure 18 depicts the trade chain and sources of rhino horn that are moving from South Africa to Viet Nam. Since 2003, apart from the large numbers of White Rhino horns obtained as legally hunted tro- phies, Vietnamese nationals have also increasingly been implicated in the acquisition of rhino horns deriving from other sources.
A second source of horns has involved privately-held stocks (recovered from natural mortalities and legal or illegal dehornings) that had not been declared and registered with relevant provincial authorities and have been sold in contravention of national legislation in South Africa. Further leakage of horn onto illegal markets has
also followed the theft of rhino horn stocks from both private and public owners and institutions. Finally, poaching of both Black and White Rhinos within South Africa and from neighbouring countries, especially Zimbabwe, has provided a fourth and major source of horns. It is important to recognize that these four sources of rhino
horn are all strongly interlinked and have been collectively managed as the “supply” by the organized crime syndicates behind the trade to Asian destinations.

 

You keep on mentioning February 2009 Ms hume, maybe you should tell people what rhino farmers did before feb 2009

 

Prior to February 2009, it was legal for South African nationals to buy and sell rhino horns to each other. Farming and hunting magazines from this period often carried advertisements of rhino horn for sale, generally from rhinos which had died from natural mortalities. Scrutiny of these activities by nature con- servation authorities revealed that some horns sold nationally were passed on to Asian nationals and ille- gally exported out of the country. In February 2009, the South African government placed a national moratorium on the internal sale of rhino horns in order to curtail abuses of the system.

 

However, it is useful to compare the actual reported data with estimated rates of rhino horn accumula- tion in the private sector as an indication of what is potentially “missing” in the data and possibly has already gone into illegal trade. It has been estimated that, overall, the mortality rate of the segment of the country’s rhino population that is privately owned is 2.15% annually (Hall-Martin et al., 2009). If that is the case, between 2005 and 2008 a total of 322 White Rhino deaths would have occurred, yield- ing approximately 1650 kg of rhino horn (Hall-Martin et al., 2009). In addition, another 125 kg of horn per annum was harvested through dehorning or other factors, increasing the total over this four-year period to “at least 2150” kg (Hall-Martin et al., 2009). When other years that predate this time period are considered, Hall-Martin et al. (2009) suggested that at least 3361 kg of rhino horn should be in the hands of private owners in South Africa. Using the same methodology from Hall-Martin et al. (2009) for natural mortalities from 2009 and 2010 produces an updated total private horn stockpile of 3921 kg. Another look at this issue using a different methodology estimated that some 4750 kg of rhino horn should be in the private sector (Milliken et al, 2009b). It can be seen that South Africa’s official declara- tion of privately-owned rhino horn stocks to CITES in mid-2009 falls far short of these figures by as much as 70% (Figure 19). Indeed, if the average White Rhino horn size is four kilogrammes (Martin, 1983), South Africa’s data for private sector stocks in 2009 is under-reported by up to 830 rhino horns or 415 rhinos.

Edited by Dam2810
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Trophy hunting is a very good tool to control populations of species. Some may not like hunting but it is the same as some may not like the abortion women do in order to control human population.

I am amazed how some of you are looking just for any kind of sensationalism about John Hume, looking for faults. John has made a fortune in timeshare resorts and put it onto wildlife conservation instead of retiring and enjoying his legally earned money in the lavish lifestyle. He is the only man in the world who has bred with own funds over 670 rhinos- world record , yet there is almost no reaction to it. Only all negativity. Why is that?

With over 20 years of experience in wildlife management, especially rhino breeding programs, there were cases when we had to sell rhino for hunt to foreign hunters (never Asian nationality) ONE black rhino bull a year and only THREE cases where we had to hunt white rhino bulls , all because they used to kill our pregnant rhino females and young bulls. In return we managed to breed so many rhinos and since we bought more land- no longer we wish to practice rhino hunt. With more land we isolate those rhino bulls that present danger to our breeding herd where they live in a group of only bulls. Life is not perfect. But we try our best.

As for quotes that legal trade will not help rhinos- without trying we'll never know. What we know for sure- if we continue with banning legal trade, there will be no rhinos left in the wild, just like it happened with the rest of the world. Two rhino subspecies went extinct under international ban on trade in rhino horn, which been in place for 36 years! The current law does not favours rhinos or rhino breeders, it only favours illegal trade, which results in rhino and people deaths, due to poaching activities. Time to change the law and help our communities to become proud rhino custodians, instead of becoming rhino poachers. Time to put down handcuffs and legally manage trade in rhino horn.

Edited by Albina Hume

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and it goes on

 

 

or example, some 80% of the 300 kg of rhino horn that allegedly was moved out of South Africa by a single Thai national in 2007–08 was reported to have been supplied by a South African businessman of South Asian descent who served as a middleman dealer based near Hartebeespoort Dam in Gauteng province. This individual is alleged to have repeatedly sourced horn from privately-owned game farms and professional hunters throughout the country, and then sold it on to Asian nationals who had the ability to move it on to international destinations.

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I recognise the merits of huntings. But, i was talking here about pseudo hunts by asians, hunts that apparently according to the bloomberg article, your husband found acceptable (hunts for which mr Thormalen is well known).... But you are right, i should not have mentioned him. Bad luck, you pick up the wrong hunter.

Edited by Dam2810

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In fact, this individual has reportedly at least once sold rhino horn within South Africa prior to the national moratorium:

Until recently, horn buyers advertised openly in Game & Hunt magazine for “tusks and rhino horns” that have been “legally obtained.” It is legal to trade horn within South Africa’s borders with appropriate permissions. Hume followed up on one such offer in July 2006, when he obtained permits to ship 84 kg of horn to a buyer in the North West province of South Africa. Hume believes the horns subsequently left the country. He sold the horn for just ZAR8000 (US$1200) per kilogram (Borrell, 2010).

always from the traffic document.

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A balanced if somewhat dated article from 30 March 2012 - here

 

I can cherry pick the sections I like from the article and similarly pro traders can pick the parts they like.

 

We are losing 3 rhinos a day, we may already be at the tipping point where deaths exceed births in Kruger and we can debate as long and as hard as we want to here and it makes no difference. South Africa needs to act like a Soveriegn Country that will take no nonsens from armed insurgents that invade our space daily and have no respect for our national heritage and our brave Rangers.

 

Get meaningful MoUs in place with Mozambique, China and Vietnam. Show that we have the will to stop this. Allow hot pursuit of poachers who celebrate their victory in places like KABOK. Masinger and other towns.

 

  • Meet with the Mozambicans and show the value of ecotourism and how Moz can benefit from a tourist spillover from Kruger if we pursue the Peace ParksVision.

  • Devalue horn - number of ways to do this

  • Work with communities and show we mean business - a quick and hefty sentence - look here

  • Discard the rotten apples, I quote from the same link as in point 3 above, "Rangers also mentioned that they were tired of public servants that were found to be involved in rhino poaching. They were of the opinion that stiffer sentences should be imposed on them and that their assets should be seized."

  • We have much funding to do a lot more, we lack the political will


 

 

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I am not going to come into this debate as I do not agree with legalising the rhino horn sale in any way.

 

However your comment Albina Hume, intrigues me.

 

'Trophy hunting is a very good tool to control populations of species. Some may not like hunting but it is the same as some may not like the abortion women do in order to control human population.'

 

I dont know whether you are serious or what you have said is just a flippant remark. I will put it down to ignorance but would welcome your clarification.

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@@Amol. As for hunting or abortions, or use of hemp or gay marriages- fortunately, our society has recognized that each person must be able to make such decision, based on their own conscience. In other words -everything that is done legally should not be criticised because everyone do have a right to manage their own business, own health, and own life.

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To all who will find my language difficult to understand- English is not my home language, originally I am from Ukraine. I've started to learn to speak English only 14 years ago (selftought), 9 years ago-I read my first book in English and only 4 years ago I start writing in English.

I do write and speak with an accent but I don't think with an accent :).

P.S. More clarity on topic of abortions. I see abortions as a tool for women to control human populations by not giving birth to unwanted children. I may not understand it by I don't condemn it. Things we don't understand don't give us right to hate it.

Edited by Albina Hume

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You all, who still oppose legalized trade, do forget one important fact- South Africa HAD national legal trade in rhino horn which was supplied from private owned rhinos until 13 Feb 2009! There wasn't rhino poaching crisis for wild rhinos until the change of law- historical fact no one can argue!!! Our country had little rhino poaching and ZERO NGO's collecting donations on rhino blood, simply because there was no rhino poaching crisis- rhino horn was available on legal market for little money; 8000 rands for a kg. I am the witness to this situation- I lived in South Africa for 12 years!

 

The fact that there has been an upsurge in rhino poaching since the change of the law doesn't prove that the change of law caused the upsurge! Obama became president in January 2009, is he the cause of rhino poaching? Clearly not!

There was an upsurge in the demand, which caused an upsurge in the price, which caused an upsurge in the poaching. I don't think it had much to do with the trade being legal or not. The price went up, so there was much more incentive to poach rhinos.

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From Feb. 2009 legal trade in rhino horn was banned in South Africa. The result over 3200 rhinos poached for their horns as there is no LEGAL option to obtain the horn. By banning legal trade we created conditions for illegal trade and monopoly for the black market. Such law doesn't vafours rhinos and rhino breeders.

Edited by Albina Hume

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